Should I have seen this coming ?

[Chipaccrual]

Played in the DTD monthly qualifier tonight.

Down to 13 players when this happened.

Game #6620311223: MONTHLY £50K Sat (ID8637815) £15+£1.50 - Hold'em NL (150/300) - 2008/12/09 - 22:33:49 (UK)
Table "8637815 - 2" Seat 8 is the button.
Seat 1: boldedge (8450 in chips)
Seat 3: royfinch (8725 in chips)
Seat 5: TheFlame (3162 in chips)
Seat 8: L31GHW (22480 in chips)
Seat 9: joeegg (13850 in chips)
Seat 10: JARV1 (12210 in chips)
joeegg: posts the ante 25
JARV1: posts the ante 25
boldedge: posts the ante 25
royfinch: posts the ante 25
TheFlame: posts the ante 25
L31GHW: posts the ante 25
joeegg: posts small blind 150
JARV1: posts big blind 300
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to L31GHW [kh kc]
boldedge: folds
royfinch: folds
TheFlame: folds
L31GHW: raises to 1500
joeegg: folds
JARV1: calls 1200
----- FLOP ----- [ ]
JARV1: checks
L31GHW: bets 2400
JARV1: raises to 10685 and is all-in
L31GHW: calls 8285
----- TURN ----- [ ][]
----- RIVER ----- [ ][qd]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
JARV1: shows [ah :as:] (Two Pairs, Aces and Sixes, Queen high)
L31GHW: shows [kh kc] (Two Pairs, Kings and Sixes, Queen high)
JARV1 collected 24670 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 24670 Main pot 24670 Rake 0
Board [ qd]
Seat 1: boldedge folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: royfinch folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 5: TheFlame folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: L31GHW (button) showed [kh kc] and lost with Two Pairs, Kings and Sixes, Queen high
Seat 9: joeegg (small blind) folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 10: JARV1 (big blind) showed [ah  :as:] and won (24670) with Two Pairs, Aces and Sixes, Queen high

I had been dealt Queens twice earlier with the same player on the BB.  Raised both times.  First time he re-shoves all-in for about 10k and I decide to fold.  Second time he folds to the raise.

Left me with an average stack, but went card dead.  Made final table, but ran  ac jc into Kings and I was out in 10th.

I"m annoyed with myself, because I think I should have been able to fold to the all-in.  Or should I ?

[hi_am_chris]

Not sure, is there not a gr8 possibilty he would play most pairs below kings this way aswell and get it in with 88 and upwards on that flop?

[Swinebag]

would have been a great fold, dont think I could make it.

The way you played it from the start, you were clearly going all the way with it.

I think with your massive raise and then the c bet you are committed to calling here (due to the possible shoving hands that you beat)

With a "small ball" type approach to this hand (3 of you have M"s over 20 and are pretty deep) you maybe could have lost less and maybe got away from it.

tough spot for me!

[Chipaccrual]

Not sure, is there not a gr8 possibilty he would play most pairs below kings this way aswell and get it in with 88 and upwards on that flop?

Possibly.

I was in exactly the opposite position in a tournament at the weekend.  Down to 105 runners from 600 odd, paying 90.  AA utg, up against KK from mp who has me covered and he spikes a K on the river.

Just seen the same guy, down to 5 players in the DTD tourney call an all-in. He"s got AJ against the short stacks KK.  Same as my exit hand.  J on flop, A on river.  And he knocks the player out.

It seems that these type of critical hands is where you really need a bit of luck to go your way.

[Chipaccrual]

With a "small ball" type approach to this hand (3 of you have M"s over 20 and are pretty deep) you maybe could have lost less and maybe got away from it.

What sort of size bet would you recommend in this position.  I"ll be honest, I wasn"t actually looking for much action with the kings.  Was happy to take antes and blinds and keep grinding along.  Wrong approach from me ?

[Swinebag]

I"d have raised to just 800 or 900 , c bet 2/3rds pot and that is easier to get away from when set in ( but would your oponent take the same line here?). However, you have to consistently open up with a much wider range of hands for this to be successful. (i.e keep winning small pots so folding your KK doesn"t become too big a deal). I"m not saying that this is the best way to play this hand because even with these small bets there is still a good chance that you would get drawn into a big pot that you cant get away from.

At the end of the day it was AA v KK six handed and that is a cooler IMO. If you dwell too much on this you may end up folding the best hand too often in similar situations in the future.

[LongshanksED]

after that flop i dont think there is many a player who could lay their kings down

maybe if you made a smaller bet on the flop, he raised, you re raised and he re-re raised - maybe -but i doubt i could get away

[kinboshi]

How many qualify?

[Chipaccrual]

How many qualify?

It was top 3 with about £90 for 4th.

[kinboshi]

With it only paying top 3 with a seat, you still have to accumulate a lot more chips - so yeah, I get my chips in here as well.

If it was paying to 8 or something like that, then I might be able to see a fold here.  But I still very much doubt it.

[TheAngryGambler]

i agree with every1 else, after the guy calls 10% of his stack it would send some chills down my spine but like the fellow said before if u put him on a pair there he needs to either have a set of the bullets... he was on bb maybe he would invest 10% to try trip up and double through?? hmmm ... i dont like to see aces played this way as i would of re-popped you pre flop for sure after your chunky raise thats prob why i wouldnt put him on aces and prob why i would have lost the hand aswell because i would of looked at his chips looked at mine and just thought i hope you dont have a set and called....

i cant lay KK down there with the guy out chipped and the hand played out like it did.

like you say top 3 get the prize.

[noble1]

to be honest,the way you have played it and with his check raise all in on such a strange flop together with having 60bb ish left behind , i"d fold...
This is not hindsight,i just approach playing the big stack at a table like this a little differently.
You have obviously done well to accumulate your chips,did you have any prior hands that villian had played and showndown to get a read on his range??

The 5x raise is [not being nasty] is a sign of a weak player,the size of the bet gives away your hand strength [to me i see a lot of weak tight players do this from your position TT+ AK AQs maybe AJs so i find it easy to adjust my call range and tend to trap just like villian has done here.Smooth calling AA here is a good move by villian,i dont like his check raise but would prefer to lead out 1/3 to 1/2 pot on this texture of flop expecting you to re-raise if you have an over pair and if you did i"d then re-raise and ship in the rest of my stack.

If i had your stack at this table i [only 1 shortie] without making it to obvious i try to play 2 hands per orbit [best with high suited connectors , low connectors any pair and 1 gappers] i avoid Ace ten King ten type hands as if a ace or king come on the flop it is difficult to know where you are at if there is aggressive betting [kicker trouble] when you play hands like i mentioned previously they are a lot easier to get away from if they dont connect with the flop.
Also i raise 2.2 to 2.6bb and i"m risking far less to steal the blinds and antes,if i get re-raised it is an easy fold and i try to steal next time and so on,until the table get sick of it,i will continue my thieving ways,if they play back,i sit tight for a couple of orbits and then i will resume my stealing strategy [always 1st to act no limpers or raisers , if there are i tend to fold]
It is a strategy dependent on the dynamics of the table you are at but generally it works well and because of image you will find that your big hands will be getting paid off.
I"d definitely recommend any big stack to play this way,your hands get paid off and your learning curve for hand reading will improve.


BTW AJ calling a short stack is ok as the ShSt has usually quite a wide range [any pair any broadway] and AJ has 51% equity against this range so is pretty much a std call nowadays.

hope this helps as i think i could put my thoughts on this a bit clearer but its time to give the dogs a walk   and it has been hurried.

regards
noble