playing a set out of position.

[noble1]

Seat 1: lubmynuts ($2,700) Posts big blind $30
Seat 2: koke27 ($3,490)
Seat 3: phtylphtalat275 ($3,265)
Seat 4: Robbieoz ($5,710)
Seat 5: popp6161 ($2,835)
Seat 6: Annette_15 ($6,055)
Seat 8: drtydingo ($2,135) Dealer
Posts small blind $15
Seat 9: kleath ($3,810) Posts small blind $15
Dealt to Robbieoz
::

FOLD koke27
FOLD phtylphtalat275
FOLD Robbieoz
CALL popp6161, $30
RAISE Annette_15, to $120
FOLD drtydingo
FOLD kleath
FOLD lubmynuts
CALL popp6161, $90

Flop: :: tc (Pot: $285)
CHECK popp6161
BET Annette_15, $210
CALL popp6161, $210


Turn: :: tc js (Pot: $705)
CHECK popp6161
CHECK Annette_15

River: :: tc js qd (Pot: $705)
CHECK popp6161
BET Annette_15, $210
RAISE popp6161, to $420
CALL Annette_15, $210
Showdown:
SHOWS popp6161
:: ::
SHOWS Annette_15
qs qc
Annette_15 wins the pot of $1,545 with three of a kind, Queens


my question is how would you guys proceed with either hand ? especially 22....
This caused some debate at the table afterwards,as to how to play this situation , texture of flop/board on the turn,then the river !!!
But i do think annette played position well , dont you ?

[Mayfair]

I think in the end they both did well to keep the pot relatively small.

Obviously the q on the end is a bit of a cooler.

I"ve no idea what annette plays like at cash but we have all seen
her agression in tourneys.

If i was popp i"d be more aggressive on the flop and turn,
and just called on the river. The raise looks just like throwing
money away, its way too small for anyone to fold with any showdown
value.

Annette"s play looks good to me apart from the river. I would have checked.


I think this is the kind of hand where having some data on your opponent
could make a massive difference.

Popp"s starting hands could easily be 22, 88, 99, tt, t9s etc... with annette on your left.

And Annette could could have anything against a limper in postion.

Out of interest whats she like at cash ? Is she just as agressive ?

[TopPair2Pair]

Umm okay, I fear you not scrutiny . Obvioulsy never played at this level so I cant really add that much insight but i can but share my opinion!

Overal there seems to be a lot of hesitation in this hand and a lack of aggression which seems suprising for such high stakes.

Preflop, everything seems fine, standard raise and at worst a cheeky call with dueces without position.

Flop, imo if your entering an open raised pot with dueces you cannot hit your set and check OOP just to check call flop and then check the turn, UNLESS you are 100% certain that she is going to cbet turn after your check and this is where your going to reraise and take the pot OR extract as much you possible can from the hand.

(Ok maybe initially I mistook hesitation for trappy play.)

Dont really want to consider anything after the turn just yet. Obviously you can tell i think the correct thing to do would"ve been check raise flop.

What do you think she would"ve have done if any other Jack appeared or a dead card turned over?

[noble1]

Preflop, everything seems fine, standard raise and at worst a cheeky call with dueces without position.

Flop, imo if your entering an open raised pot with dueces you cannot hit your set and check OOP just to check call flop and then check the turn, UNLESS you are 100% certain that she is going to cbet turn after your check and this is where your going to reraise and take the pot OR extract as much you possible can from the hand.

good points Toppietwo , i agree that with hitting a set on 2 suited flop oop that check calling is spewy , although on a rainbow flop i might mix in a check call into my repertoire.
If popp6161 were to check raise is there argument that annette would be able to get away from an over pair?
Can anyone think of a reason to not limp calling raises oop with low pocket pairs?

yep sry guys it is a $216 mtt on tilt.

it is still early levels 15/30,and by an large pot size control is better unless there is a lot of sat players at the table then there can be un-controlled aggression.
popp6161 is pretty loose but not wild,annettes reputation proceeds her a lot but generally in the early levels of a freeze out mtt she is more solid than LAG.

The questions thrown up by the table afterwards were how if the set were to lead into or check raise on the flop,would the hand turned out very differently?.
Again on the turn is there anyone who thinks 22 should lead out??
The river i think annette played well, a good size value bet as any of popp6161 holdings that would be beating her would of bet out on the turn?

Does anyone think by check calling the flop the set loses control of the hand?
Would anyone play the river [22] differently, i"m intrested as to what others think because with the texture of the board and how it has been played upto that point is there any other valid play?

[LongshanksED]

from a purely amatuer point of view - with my set i"d have re raised on the flop after annette bet and a good bit, maybe to $1000 to out price any draws, there is flush draw and possible open ended or gut shot straight draws possible on the flop but i doubt annette would"ve folded her queens

turn is a scary flush possibilty but with the play as it was i"d maybe lead out for half the pot  but again i"d imagine annette wouldve called to with 4 cards to a queen flush

if all this had panned out as i wouldve played it, come the river and the possible straight and with annettes pre flop bet she could easily have pocket 9"s or AK, i"d have checked and probably called annette"s small bet as the odds would be too tempting, certainly not raised it

but as it panned out i dont think either player made any mistakes

[noble1]

i see the merits of check raising the flop LongshanksED but imo if you re-raise such a large amount you are losing value, if annette or any opponent were on a flush draw the set of twos are around 80% favourite,so surely a reraise to 560 ish offering 3 to 1 odds for the flush draw is better +ev? The re-raise to 1000 is pot committing yourself to the hand and against a weaker player this may get a donk all in or call,but the std of opponents in these mtts means that generally they are quite capable of getting away from 1 pair [and over pairs] especially so early and deep stacked.

[TopPair2Pair]

Ok if its an MTT that makes a lot more sense regardin the trappy play.

personally I dont think she"s going anywhere to a check raise with such a prem hand on that flop. I cant really think about anything else seriously atm until i get my head around the turn but will need to look at that again tomo when i can see straight! If you have any priors that would be good to look at, I get the feeling she"s been running popps over and he finally thinks he gots her!

With regards to the 22 river decision, popps has to accept defeat here imo and demonstrate the dicipline to himself to lay it down. Any other card then a J or a Q on the turn and I think she bets out and his creativity gets paid off unless she has a read on him (check call read???!) Damn I wish u recorded this so I could whatch it over and then whatch her recent video a few times

[Swinebag]

annette played it perfectly (not too controversial to say that really) and got lucky. I really like her bet on the river (even though I dont fully understand it). The guy with the 22 played it poorly. lead the flop there for so many reasons....

1. you could get rearaised and then you are in valoo town
2. with 2 spades and 8 10 we have a drawy board. There are too many potential scare cards (one of which landed on the turn). When I say scare card, I mean scared about not getting value from my set.
3. check raising is probably not too bad (let the aggressor take the lead and all that...) but will most times kill the action and probably not build the pot you think it will.

check calling is awful and achieves nothing but keeping the pot small and in a perverse way annette now has control of the pot with the worse hand.

The check on the turn is possibly not the worst thing, given how badly the flop  was played and what has now come on the turn, but to then min raise the river makes absolutely no sense to me and is a mandatory call for annette.

I remember playing a set this badly myself at the Walsall national last year and would like to think I"ve learnt from the experience.

PS...cant believe you folded the best hand noble1
PPS...4-6-0 formation FTW...you jammy scouse gits

[noble1]

nice summary Swinebag22 , i like your thoughts on leading out with the set oop.I will put some thoughts on this later tomorrow but i"d like to see other APATers views on this before i do so, its not as a straight forward situation as may first appear if you analyze it.

annette played it perfectly (not too controversial to say that really) and got lucky. I really like her bet on the river (even though I dont fully understand it).

Lucky is a bit strong   as Annette demonstrates the power of position if you look at it again.
The river bet makes sense if you play back in your mind any hand that is beating her on the turn will more than likely bet out on the turn,applying this logic of thinking you see why she value bets the river [and the amount] now apply that logic to what would check call the flop and check the turn and again check the river
and you can see how annette worked out villians likely holdings.

PS...cant believe you folded the best hand noble1

errr my image was slightly loose at this moment in the mtt as i had stacked only shortly before a opponent with KK with my power house 84 off suit which i had raised utg    needless to say i thought i better lay low for a couple of orbits lol...

PPS...4-6-0 formation FTW...you jammy scouse gits

what a great game   who needs strikers away from home against such poor opposition lol lol  bring back sven   lmao  

[Swinebag]

Thanks noble1. Every poker test I"ve done has criticised my river play. I miss loads of value bets here. One of my new years resolutions is to improve my river play

[LongshanksED]

how did you finish in the end noble?

did you hoover annette"s chips up?

[noble1]

Swinebag22  - The guy with the 22 played it poorly. lead the flop there for so many reasons....

I think you are spot on here,why? because against a strong player playing a strong hand out of position,i think you have to bet into solid players with the set, it will immediately let me know if they have a hand or not. If they call my bet, I know they hit top pair on the flop [nice if an ace or king has flopped]and I"ll be able to pot-commit them by the river. [by leading and sizing my bets on the turn in a way that will compel them to re-raise or at least call,i know i can extract even more on the river] I am looking from the turn onwards to try and pot commit them.
What will a strong TAG re-raise ? a higher set [not good]top pair strong kicker or an over pair prehaps,sometimes a strong flush draw with over cards.This also works against a strong LAG who will definitely re-raise a strong flush draw or at least represent one if he has position  

Now in this situation popp6161 has decided to slow play his set,if against a aggressive opponent [the type who give little thought and 3 barrel a lot] slow playing is a good choice imo,but OOP to a strong thinking player who realize that one pair is not a monster and have position like annette , it gave her the opportunity to check the turn [pot control,a chance to hit a Q flush for free,a 9 for a straight or a Queen for the higher set]
How many lower level players do you think would over value there hand here if they were playing in Annettes place and play it like they have the nuts??
This is a good example of the power of position,thought and simple pot size control.........in my opinion.

My friend has been playing on poker heaven today whilst i watched and a good example of a strong aggressive top pair man came up - The stacks are both similar sizes of 6000 ish, villian raises utg+2 3x100 everyone folds to my friend in the big blind with 55 he calls, FLOP - -5s-9h rainbow , my mate was going to check call then check raise the turn , i explained to him that with him oop that the villian may be able to throw away his 1 pair to a check raise on the turn and that by leading we may be able to get him to over commit.So we lead out 350 chips the villian calls which means he"s most likely holding A-K or something with a king pre-flop.
The turn is where we try to pot-commit him , if we check, he bets and we re-raise, he may fold. Instead of scaring him off like that, we bet out 420 on the turn , and if he re-raises, then we can go all-in or commit on the river. If he just calls, we can get him all-in at the river or at least extract more chips with a value bet.
Villian re-raises big to 1800 [he now has just over 1/3 his stack invested] my friend calls , the pot was around 5000 ish the river was another king   and my mate ships in his remaining stack and villian calls with AKo.........ship it............lol....
Situations and opponents are different but with thought you can maximise your good hands. Not for a second did villian think we were leading a set,he put us on a worse king   or a bluff

[Laxie]

I really like that play with the set of 5"s when the board is rainbow.  What do you do if there"s danger (draws)?  Bet the cageebees out if it from the flop and just cut it down now or play the same way...hoping you stay ahead?

[Jon MW]

I"d rarely slow play a set if there were any kind of draw.

Fastplaying it can (and often does) lead to you losing a massive pot when they stick around for their draw despite not having the odds - but at least you"re charging them for the risk they"re taking.

And more often than not it just wins you the pot there and then - and I"m happy with that.

[noble1]

I really like that play with the set of 5"s when the board is rainbow.  What do you do if there"s danger (draws)?  Bet the cageebees out if it from the flop and just cut it down now or play the same way...hoping you stay ahead?

OOP against an unknown player [no reads] with a set on a draw heavy board , i mix it up with my normal std flop bet of 4/10 to 6/10 pot ish or i will check call and reassess the turn , if chips are plentiful you can check raise the flop or turn and put villian to the test] if you get to see the next card and it is dangerous and the opponent seems to like it then i have no problem folding [again situational decisions are hard without a hand example as there are so many different scenarios ..] Oh the power of position   it makes life so much easier in making decisions..

If you know the opponent and that they wont call draws at prohibitive odds then i would adjust accordingly and after leading the flop [they call] i would still lead out on the turn [trying to keep control of the pot]

If popp6161 had lead out on his flop and again strong on the turn , i think annette would of reluctantly folded [at this stage of mtt and blind to stack ratio]