playing a set out of position.

[Swinebag]

Well done on losing the minimum. i can see why you called there and the reasoning seems fine.

In my analysis, I gave the players far too much credit (when it seems they were a couple of donkeys) and came up with a fold on the flop, but in reality, if i was in that situation, I couldn"t fold (though I"d have check/folded on the turn if I"d have called)

I would have probably still shoved on the flop.

If anything this hand demonstrates the power of position and solid reads.

[Eck]

Sigh

Is that a sigh that I"m one of the bad players?  

You don"t like the way I played it at all?  

No I don"t like it at all I am shoving here 100% of the time. No way i am putting half my stack in knowing i have the best hand then be prepared to fold if a "scare" card comes. I would give the others the decision to make and obviously fade the club as well. Would be interested to hear Flushy/Triggs views..stick it up on blonde and see what gets said please.

[TopPair2Pair]

Did you tell the lad you had 3"s when you asked if he wuda called a shove on flop? lol!!

Anyway, regardless I think your instincts were right and would"ve played it in a similar way, if not exactly the same.

If I was feeling tricky,would"ve donated a snidey bigger flush representation with a pitiful (max 25% pot) lead to his check on turn, following on with our earlier strong flop call, which i would have hoped the net player at least would remember and fear a bigger flush, pos even nut f/draw.

Its a very risky and pointless manouvre in most circumstances but its very confusing for BB. Old boy is still riasing tho

[kinboshi]

Sigh

Is that a sigh that I"m one of the bad players?  

You don"t like the way I played it at all?  

No I don"t like it at all I am shoving here 100% of the time. No way i am putting half my stack in knowing i have the best hand then be prepared to fold if a "scare" card comes. I would give the others the decision to make and obviously fade the club as well. Would be interested to hear Flushy/Triggs views..stick it up on blonde and see what gets said please.

Yeah, I will.  EvilPie was on the table and he said that he"d have pushed as well.  

[noble1]

i can see the argument for shoving the flop,but after the action i"d feel that if any 2 of my opponents are on a flush draw they are not going to fold.
Although calling the flop re-raise leaves us with 8500 chips [56bb - 10000 chips start] with 45 min levels this only being level 3,we still have enough to build back up.
If this was in the later levels and we was down in the 10 to 25bb stack size area then i"d be all for shoving in this situation.
Because online mtts mainly start 75bb 15 min levels i think a lot of players cant adapt patience wise to a slower deeper structure and try to accumulate to quickly and push there 50% edges one to many times in the belief that they have a greater chance of going deeper.
Even with 56bb left it is not winning big pots with big hands that is the goal but trying to win a ton of small and medium pots.
In mtts like these you are rewarded for how long you last, rather than for how many chips you accumulate.In cash game poker, the chips you save by folding are just as valuable as the chips you win by playing this applies to tournament play as well !! the chips you save are actually more valuable.This concept took me a while to learn whilst i experimented with my mtt strategy and generally through trial and error in my opinion there was no real benefit to gambling early on.There are no concrete rules as to how fast you should try to build your stack in the early going, but the main thing is you don"t want to do is to go broke by playing too loose or put everything on the line in the 3rd level with a %50 edge,there are many other ways to accumulate chips and position is key in picking up all these small to medium pots.The crucial levels dont begin till the 5th onwards imo be that in a slow or fast structured mtt.Use your skills of reading players and betting patterns,do you sense weakness? then take the pot away from them,avoid showdowns as much as you possibly can [you will see some] steal blinds,trust your reads and your image if its tight 3 bet a medium stack gain chips there.
The people who take early leads in mtts rarely win FACT..So why the mentality to accumulate early or push fine edges??? i find that just by trying to out last all my opponents get into the cash positions or near the bubble then my chances of getting deeper increase as i open my game up then,often one double up at this stage sends you soaring up the leader board.

This is just my opinion  

regards
noble

[Eck]

please stop, what you are suggesting is to ignore the maths and hand away a huge edge. I haven"t stuck this through stove but if you do we will be a big favourite against a very small range.

If it is set over set we take our punishment but to suggest you can hand away half your chips because you think you have an edge over the field and can continue to small ball your way from there is frankly not on.

You have the opportunity to get a 30k stack at 75/150 which will definitely allow you to do what you suggest and play a lot of pots in position and pressurize others.

[noble1]

yes sometimes in mtts you ignore maths,the long term variance view you get in cash games is ok you can replenish your stack whenever you like.
In a mtt with a fast structure it is a crap shoot and a lot of the skill in poker is taken away,you are forced to make stands with marginal holdings and maths and equity play a part.
In slow deep structures,if you are skillful there is no need to take small even shot edges early on,you have time to pick your spots and play poker.Alas there are still people who have no clue how to adjust to a slower structure and they still employ speed play techniques , the concept of survival escapes them,these players are usually lacking in the poker skills compartment and use ""mathematical edges"" as an excuse for shoving in situations that if they had any player or hand reading ability they would be able to get away from..
In todays poker world poker players are bombarded with books about the mathematics and how ""important"" it is , M zones ,pot odds, equity,implied odds or fold equity they are only a small part of your poker skills,the important skills like patience , people/hand reading and the psychological aspect are hardly touched upon.
As patience factors in mtts get higher the skill levels rise because players have more time to be selective in the pots they enter and to be flexible about the way they choose to play their hands,or am i wrong in thinking that ?  

There is no need to pokerstove , a set versus two opponents 1 [loose] on top pair,2 pair,poss-99,poss flush draw Ax, the other [young lad] on a flush draw with a piece of sorts of the flop,99 not discounted is on average around %50 at best with 2 cards to come. is this a huge edge? it is if you think your opponents are good enough to fold or at least one of them,then your edge is %70 + , but the way the action unfolded in Kinboshis situation suggested they were not going to fold on the flop,but i would of been interested if young lad had missed his club on the turn if he would of called all his stack then [if he were to check turn then i would discount 99 from his range],so with the point of view of calling the flop and re-evaluating the turn, if there is no club then shove to isolate the loose player is the optimum play , 4 times out of 5 it may well work !!!! the 1 time it does not and the club comes you survive with 56bb and a good chance to build back up,young donkey is still at the table   theres hope yet.. 
If young lad calls our shove on the turn he is getting odds of 3 to 1 hmmm but now we have an big edge !!!

So which way has the best edge,shove flop or shove turn if no club??

remember we had no real read on young lad except that he said himself that he was good  
with it being so early in the mtt , no antes in play yet and a good structure time wise and opponent stacks at this stage mostly being of a similar size for me i would be comfortable in finding other situations to gain chips.
Some players are only comfortable when they amass large stacks early [thats ok,they play to there style] but i am ok short, medium or large stacked,i have had plenty of practice at all 3..I just feel that to be consistent in mtts you need a good all round game and it would not feel right to me to tell everyone to shove bottom set on a flop OOP with little info,when its something i would not do myself.I prefer to get my chips in on the turn and river when i have more info to work on.

Each to there own as they say Eck

edit - done pokerstove out of interest ,

board -
Kinboshi - 3d3h - 54.643%
loose guy - 99,AKs,KJs+,K9s,AKo,KJo+,K9o - 12.729%
young lad - 99,AKs,KQs,JTs - 32.628%

turn with club - take away 99 from young lads range and put him on flush
board -
Kinboshi - 3d3h - 17.778%
loose guy - 99,AKs,KJs+,K9s,AKo,KJo+,K9o - 11.270%
young lad - JcTc - 70.952%

turn with no club , discount 99 from YL range if he checks again put him on FD
board -
Kinboshi - 3d3h - 70.159%
loose guy - 99,AKs,KJs+,K9s,AKo,KJo+,K9o - 7.460%
young lad - JcTc - 22.381% best flush draw hand on this board if it is KQcc or ATcc
then his percentages are 18% and 16% with these type of draw hands and 3d3h increases to around 76%

[Eck]

I bow to your superior knowledge and obvious level of skills that is so great that you can pass such a clear edge and continue to dominate a table. I clearly have no idea how to play a slow deep stacked structure and I use the fundamental maths as a crutch to hold up my weak and entirely flawed approach to the game.

I obviously have no patience, people/hand reading skills or whatever else you suggest makes you such a skilfull player. I think a skill in this game is keeping decisions easy call and you are potentially folding the turn. There is a 9k pot out there and we have about that behind. If you accept we are stacking off if no club comes then i see no benefit in playing streets as we are too shallow compared to the pot. I want that pot it and if mateyboy wants to get all his chips in with the hope of hitting his draw then good luck to him, how happy do you think he is going to be calling without the nut draw?

I suppose this must make me a terrible player but hey ho it seems to work as i can"t recall too many losing months over the last few years since i started.

[noble1]

like i said eck, each to there own, we have different opinions on a situation.

[i think you read my post whilst i edited it with the additional parts that you may of missed]

[noble1]

I know there is a lot of people in favour of the all in on the flop,the pot size is enticing
and it could be a ""play it big or go home moment""..
This thread imo has turned into a great one and if anything confirms that position is key in poker.
My final last gasp attempt to convert anyone in the all in flop camp is this -
[even just one person]

Sometimes in deep stack mtts you need to combine a good read [sometimes no reads]with caution, aggression, and patience.
Kinboshi had a good read on utg+1 and i think nearly everyone who replied to his post agreed on his hand range being wide.
The fly in the ointment was the Big Blind,if i had been in Kinboshis seat at the time to be honest my initial thought after the action on the flop is passed back round to me would to be re-raise and isolate the utg+1 who has pot committed himself,but sometimes i do think about the std of my opponents in the pot with me,how do they perceive me and what hand do they think i have,what have they got etc etc.

After reading Kinboshis first post,frankly i could not pin point a hand range on the big blind which made sense given his position in the hand and with the action which has unfolded in front of him and that he was good? [his own opinion]. Add to this that Kinboshi has a tight image and has raised utg and put in a strong bet with 2 callers.To me this screamed bad player, nothing made sense for a ""good player"" to play in that position,the board,the action and to smooth call a re-raise with Kinboshi still to act after leading out utg with such a tight image??

My initial thought of re-raising on the flop now didnt look as straight forward,what on earth is that chump doing oop in the big blind?
Now my thoughts were something like - this player is bad,he ls not a thinking player what so ever,i could not discount 99 totally but i thought flush draw more likely with some sort of connection to flop [top pair flush draw or inside straight with a flush draw]in which that chump had fallen in love with,so my range for him was narrowed to something like AKcc KQcc TJcc 99..

Now i thought what would i do in this situation -
the pot stands at 8775 with us still to act.
we had 12000 chips initially and so far we have only invested 1700
it is still in the early stages 75/150 no antes  10000 chip start, 45 min levels
If we were to re-raise or go all in to isolate utg+1 would the big blind fold?

The chump has most likely called a flush draw oop at odds of 1.9 so it stands to reason in my opinion that he his going to call an all in by us if we make it,he seems to be a loose passive call station.
Thinking through the hand ranges of both players i figured that at best we was around 50% ish to win if we go all in [this is before i put it through stove]
Two other options are fold or call.
I discount fold as there is a nice pot to win,and at the moment we most likely have the best hand.
So a 50% chance to triple up or call for 1800 more leaving us with 8500 chips and a situation where chump has a 4 to 1 chance of hitting a club on the turn,if he misses and we shove the turn to isolate utg+1 , if that works we dont triple up but we will increase our stack to 22575 chips..
If the chump calls us anyway on the turn,i feel more relaxed with a 70% edge than a 50% one,given the circumstances,the possible reads on the big blind i thought this as the best way to proceed.
If a club comes on the turn,we still have 8500 chips and plenty of time to chip up.

In my opinion this scenario with the 2 opponents involved together with the reads on them and a mtt ethos of trying to mix survival,aggression,patience,caution and chip accumulation is the best way to approach it..

Not the way i would play 33 but given Kinboshis situation what is the optimum play?
I do so hope i converted one person in the all in camp   sometimes there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

regards
noble