betting patterns

[noble1]

With todays hyper aggressive plays in poker is there edge in being aware of betting patterns?
Can you use the knowledge of betting patterns to gain a advantage over your opponents and likewise use these patterns to improve your own game?
If you review your sessions you met most likely pick up patterns in your own game and that could be one hell of a saving in your cash game..

If i were to write out a pattern like - flop-bet 2/3  turn-bet 3/4   river-check
hands up who thinks that this looks like top pair flop but has failed to improve by the river to say 2 pair or trips...

So why do so many players have a problem with a check raise by an opponent who is out of position, the villian hits a set on the flop the pattern goes -
flop-check call   turn-check raise
yet still there are a lot of players calling these spots with top pair or two pair..

So what i"d like to ask all my fellow APATers is are there any other betting patterns that you have come across that i have not mentioned above,also if you detected
a pattern in your own game how would go about fixing it??

[LongshanksED]

ive noticed a pattern in my own game when im first to act and im currently trying to mix it up to eradicate it but unfortunetly i seem to be a creature of habit

things like continuation betting too often, 1/4 or 1/3 probe bets when i hit middle or bottom pair (or lower pair than the board) rather than a pot sized bet sometimes to try and win outright

betting patterns only really work when you spot them when you have been at the same table as others for at least a few hours and watched them closely - where as in todays online games having the same players at your table for more than an hour is a long time

this could be a good thread - im just a little tired at the moment to think about it properly

[noble1]

LongshanksED

things like continuation betting too often, 1/4 or 1/3 probe bets when i hit middle or bottom pair (or lower pair than the board) rather than a pot sized bet sometimes to try and win outright

hooray a reply   anyone would think it is christmas lol lol

This was also an area of my game that gave me problems LongshanksED , what i changed in this part of my strategy [especially in mtts] i gave a lot more consideration to my position at the table and my actions depended on what i had flopped and also my stack size to big blinds.
Nearly everyone now is dubious about a bet on the flop from the raiser especially, and so most opponents tend to call to see if you lead out on the turn.
I have a lot of thoughts on the continuation bets and the patterns you can exploit from it [the turn continuation bet as well] but hopefully others will chip in with there thoughts on this pattern.
But back to leading out LongshanksED , what i changed in my game was if it was in the early levels and i had position  eg- button i raised QJ and the sb had called me,
the flop is KJ3 and the sb checks,because the check raise bluff is so common now
in this situation because they always think the button range is so wide , i will check
also [it gives me a chance to hit 2 pair or trips or to see if a ten comes] it also helps to keep control of the pot size.A lot of Players who cont. bet there medium
strength hands tend to end up building biggish pots with not so strong holdings..
There are lots of situations where checking the flop is advantageous and seeing a turn card !!

the above scenario applys to cash games equally as well imo

this could be a good thread

i hope it does turn into a good one,there a lot of patterns and strategy"s to explore here..

[LongshanksED]

i find i do check more in cash games when i hit  the flop/turn more often in cash games and able to call small bets on the river where the pot could get out of control by the time the river comes along and i lose a good portion

yet i dont do this very often in tourney and the result of this i seem to have more success in cash games than in STT & MTT tourneys doing this at the moment

the level of cash games i play (micro /10c or /20c) i find people play more of a tourney style of game and go all in with AQ etc pre flop and are easier to predict their betting patterns

[noble1]

all in pre-flop with AQ in mtts or cash if what i think you are referring to which what happens in say low level buy ins mtts in the early levels or the micro cash games is not a tourny style play,generally just think to yourself , donk player,inexperienced post flop.
If you apply your post flop cash game to a low buy in mtt,you met find quite a few players just itching to bluff there chips off to you when you check to them.


[i know in the early levels of micro mtts some players employ a strategy in the first
2 or 3 levels of going all in pre with pocket pairs and AQ AK AJs because there are some maniac call stations that will call and gamble with any 2 cards but please dont
think this as a common tourny style]


if you see this bet pattern LongshanksED [anyone] - Raise, Bet, Check  
what cards generally would you put your opponent on??

[LongshanksED]

if you see this bet pattern LongshanksED [anyone] - Raise, Bet, Check  
what cards generally would you put your opponent on??

depending on flop but i"d be guessing AK to AJ and not hitting their cards

or a pair lower than the board perhaps

[noble1]

spot on... it is one most of us recognise, and yet imo a lot of players ignore the check raise pattern and they tend to convince themselves that the check raiser is on a draw or a weaker hand  
Just getting to know bet patterns and bet sizes [2 components of hand reading] improves everyone"s game. 
Once you get to know a players style AND his betting patterns, you pwn them..
The key for ourselves is to be unpredictable so no one can exploit us easily.

Anyone any thoughts on this??


betting patterns and player styles/tendencies , what is a good way to accelerate your learning and imo improve your mtt game?  
Play some heads up poker.......

here is 2 guys playing poker !!

[youtube=425,350][/youtube]

[noble1]

some good reading to go with the above - good reading imo - http://www.totalgambler.com/pokertips/skillsandstrategy/3519/poker_endgame_stratgegy.html

[noble1]

mtt has just started basically,i have no reads on villian or notes..
Does anyone disagree with my line of play? how would you proceed?
Any thoughts on exposabres possible hands?



Full Tilt Poker Game #8915462058: FTOPS Event #11 (62637930), Table 109 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:02:51 ET - 2008/11/11
Seat 1: yoshdog22 (5000)
Seat 2: Robbieoz (4985)
Seat 3: DeuceBuster (4970)
Seat 5: CapTinBisKuiT (5000)
Seat 6: swool (5000)
Seat 7: exposabre (4910)                                  
Seat 8: agriffrod (5000)
Seat 9: SCTrojans08 (5135)
yoshdog22 posts the small blind of 15
Robbieoz posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Robbieoz [qs js]
DeuceBuster folds
CapTinBisKuiT folds
swool folds
exposabre raises to 90
agriffrod folds
SCTrojans08  folds
yoshdog22 calls 75
Robbieoz calls 60
*** FLOP *** [jd qc ::]
yoshdog22 checks
Robbieoz checks
exposabre bets 190
yoshdog22 folds  
Robbieoz raises to 690
exposabre raises to 1590
Robbieoz ??

 

[LongshanksED]

i cant really see how you can fold to be honest - yet i feel if you call orshove your beat

[noble1]

yep,lots have said shove it in or call on forums that i have posted this on...

but it was the early stages in the mtt and i rarely want to stack off with 2 pair in a slow structure when i have 100bb + ..

the reason i posted this hand was to get a feel for how others would perceive my check raise but alas not many looked at it from the opponents point of view..
on one forum some of you may know which,the discussion got into betting for info being wrong/right etc etc .. When you have no reads/history on a opponent then making decisions online is pretty tough as unlike live poker you get to see visual and hear audible clues [hands,breathing,posture,voice is higher etc etc] to help you.
This was a situation where my check raise gave me information as to what strength hand my opponent could possibly have,some would say with me being OOP a probe bet would achieve the same result but imo you can probe check raise,it is a strong approach and most players will view it as that, so the action they then take afterwards should help me define there hand and help me make better decisions especially against a opponent that i have no read on.

i am not saying that in this particular scenario the check raise was the best line for me to take but because i reacted to the new ""information"" that i got from this line of play i was able to make a decision based purely on betting patterns..
My opinion is that in online poker being such a different beast to live , you have to use betting to define your opponents hands...every bet you make online and how your opponents react to them are the only strong clues you will get to define what they have or not have in some cases  

After all that my check raise was designed as a value type bet but it led to further
developments which caused me to re-evaluate whether i was ahead or not..

[AMRN]

What a horrible spot. You can fold and take your 100bb+ and find a better spot to take your chances...... OR consider that top two is ahead of many possible holdings such as AQ, KK, AA etc - his preflop raise might indicate any of these hands, but of course it might also indicate QQ or JJ.... however as you have one of each, that"s unlikely

I have to think I would be shoving here, probably in the almost certain knowledge that I"m throwing my tourney away early.

[noble1]

What a horrible spot. You can fold and take your 100bb+ and find a better spot to take your chances...... OR consider that top two is ahead of many possible holdings such as AQ, KK, AA etc - his preflop raise might indicate any of these hands, but of course it might also indicate QQ or JJ.... however as you have one of each, that"s unlikely

I have to think I would be shoving here, probably in the almost certain knowledge that I"m throwing my tourney away early.

pretty much how i thought AMRN at the time AA KK met reraise back but i thought it odd on that texture of flop to a check raise,so i gave him the benefit of the doubt and decided to keep my eye on him lol lol as i had no reads on him as like you
i thought that he could possibly have a set and because of my line of play he figured me strong and was going to get value out of a strong hand by the size of his re-raise bet and he would ship them in on the turn..

he showed QQ by the way after i folded,some say i should of check called in the 1st place or called the re-raise after he re-raised but thats not my style generally.

but i thought it an interesting hand to post due to my line of playing the situation.

[LongshanksED]

this is a pattern ive been noticing alot more recently - albeit in low stake tourneys ($5 - $10 buy ins)

player A in early or mid position limps in

player B in any position raises to 3-5 BB"s

folded back to player A who goes all in

player B thinks then calls


what do you put players A and B on?

[lukybugur]

PP v AK more often than not