Tourney hand - comments appreciated!

[hi_am_chris]

as said shove or fold pre flop, if there are antes that would make me more inclined to shove as theres more to win and im still losing chips every hand after, if there arent antes then you can possibly find a reason to fold and look to get your money in in the next orbit

[WarBwastardo]

If you know the guy to your left is loose and he"s got a huge stack you have to expect him to call your 500 raise, in which case it leaves you out of position with over a quarter of your stack invested facing a flop with Ace-High. 

Was it a ten handed table?  What was average chips at the time? How much did 10th place get?  And  stuff.

If you"re happy with 10th place money there"s an argument for folding here...if you"re trying to win it you need chips so shove it in pre-flop and cross your fangers, that"s what I always say.

[smiler2705]

either push or fold, you do not have enough chips to pass on the flop. With AJ you need a bit of luck

[noble1]

[Mikeyboy9361]

Excellent advice as usual

[TopPair2Pair]

i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.

I am guessing we are doing this hoping for Ax V AceBroadway in a 2 shovee pot. ie...AK V AK where we have a gd edge.

[tonyj444]

Another spot i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.[I wont call KQ AQ 55 88 etc type hands here as they are most likely dominated]

Is this actually a +EV play?  I agree that you do need to take risks as a shorty in order to chip-up but I"m not convinced that this is a good spot for it.  Yes, hands like suited connectors play well in multi-way pots but generally when you can get in for cheap.  Lets assume 3 all-ins in front of you, this should lay you pot-odds of something in the region of 3:1 (It will be slightly better than this due to what was already in the pot from blinds/antes).  Even if we give all 3 villains a loose shoving range of 22+ AJ+ I suspect you won"t be getting the requisite 25% equity (I"m at work so don"t have pokerstove but will check this when I get home).  In reality the ranges are generally going to be tighter than this (especially from 2nd and 3rd all-ins) so I don"t understand how you gain from this play?  You have no fold equity (obviously), are risking your tournament life and are putting money into the pot in a -EV situation.

I agree with everything else youn said 110%

No doubt I"ll get home now and pokerstove will make me look a fool :-p

[noble1]

Another spot i might consider to gamble is if there are 2 or 3 all ins already ahead of me and i have a hand like 67 78 89 TJ maybe the odd 1 gapper like 79 J9 and i will gamble to triple quadruple up.[I wont call KQ AQ 55 88 etc type hands here as they are most likely dominated]

Is this actually a +EV play?  I agree that you do need to take risks as a shorty in order to chip-up but I"m not convinced that this is a good spot for it.  Yes, hands like suited connectors play well in multi-way pots but generally when you can get in for cheap.  Lets assume 3 all-ins in front of you, this should lay you pot-odds of something in the region of 3:1 (It will be slightly better than this due to what was already in the pot from blinds/antes).  Even if we give all 3 villains a loose shoving range of 22+ AJ+ I suspect you won"t be getting the requisite 25% equity (I"m at work so don"t have pokerstove but will check this when I get home).  In reality the ranges are generally going to be tighter than this (especially from 2nd and 3rd all-ins) so I don"t understand how you gain from this play?  You have no fold equity (obviously), are risking your tournament life and are putting money into the pot in a -EV situation.

I agree with everything else youn said 110%

No doubt I"ll get home now and pokerstove will make me look a fool :-p

I did say gamble    to explain myself better the situation has to right i.e the opponents ranges should be wide and it is beneficial for me to triple or quadruple up.
On or near ish the bubble where if i win will help me push deeper in the tourny or when it is actually in the money and if i win helps me get even deeper...
It is not something i use with regularity but sometimes these spots crop up and i have benefited from it  

Th9h - 35.579%
AcKd - 39.247%
AsQs - 25.174%     as you can see certain situations are worth it

and if you get it totally wrong such as -

Th9h - 19.291%
AcKd - 4.970%
QhQs - 17.693%
AdAh - 58.046%   but 4to1 to quadruple up say early in the money when i am short stack is ok for me,some may disagree...but this is my choice.

[TopPair2Pair]

Pairs have a real bearing here. I think you need some excellent end game/bubble stats on a player+good notes+reading skills to really utilise this... and if your gonna bang these out then you gta be certain that X amount of the time you do it with chips returning to you, you must go on to win the whole thing imo

10,265,098   H1/H0;+99-22             Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied H0:    27.53%   26.58%   0.95%   2728324       97307.92   { 99-22, AKs, AKo } H1:    28.63%   27.59%   1.04%   2832300      106388.08   { 99-22, ATs+, AJo+ } H2:    24.40%   23.77%   0.62%   2440215       64132.25   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o } H3:    19.45%   18.68%   0.77%   1917046       79385.75   { random } 10,154,386   H1/H0;QQ+             Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied H0:    38.83%   36.44%   2.39%   3699920      243079.92   { QQ+, AKs, AKo } H1:    25.80%   23.35%   2.46%   2370625      249384.25   { QQ+, ATs+, AJo+ } H2:    20.38%   20.00%   0.38%   2030458       38660.08   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o } H3:    14.99%   14.45%   0.55%   1466863       55395.75   { random } 10,212,359   H1/H0;JJ+             Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied H0:    37.80%   36.21%   1.60%   3697406      163032.67   { TT+, AKs, AKo } H1:    29.32%   27.67%   1.65%   2825520      168869.00   { TT+, ATs+, AJo+ } H2:    18.25%   17.89%   0.36%   1827050       36799.33   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o } H3:    14.63%   14.11%   0.52%   1440746       52936.00   { random } 10,191,266   H1/H0;!Pairs             Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied H0:    32.05%   26.36%   5.68%   2686845      579060.00   { AKs, AKo } H1:    19.79%   14.09%   5.70%   1435807      581209.83   { ATs+, AJo+ } H2:    27.95%   27.42%   0.52%   2794672       53310.83   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o } H3:    20.22%   19.48%   0.74%   1985453       74909.33   { random } 10,188,735   H2; -ATs, Ajo             Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied H0:    29.23%   20.55%   8.68%   2093616      884190.67   { AKs, AKo } H1:    20.58%   11.92%   8.66%   1214456      882117.67   { AQs+, AQo+ } H2:    29.54%   29.04%   0.50%   2958621       51316.00   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o } H3:    20.66%   19.92%   0.73%   2029719       74865.67   { random } 10,262,731   2ops             Player   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied H0:    37.90%   25.85%   12.05%   2652742     1236780.83   { AKs, AKo } H1:    25.35%   13.30%   12.05%   1364838     1236780.83   { AQs+, AQo+ } H2:    36.75%   36.62%   0.13%   3758470       13429.33   { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, J9o, 97o }

[noble1]

like i said 2to1  to  4to1 is ok for me in certain situations to chip up 3x or 4x my stack.
This if it comes up is far more significant than a basic double up when the blinds/antes are high and within 2 orbits you are desperate again...

maths is a solid base to form certain plays around say in cash games where the long term view is taken or in SNG"s when there are 5 or 4 left but basic ICM for mtt"s is a totally different beast and a lot of your cash/sng ideas should go out the window imo...

[oneill1970]

This is all so much help - when I first posted I expected maybe one or two replies, but this is awesome for my first hand post (I think!).  I"ll be playing another low buyin online tourney on Saturday, I hope, and, with all these ideas swimming around my head, it"ll be a great experience, win or lose.  I already feel a better player.  Hopefully I am!

On a similar note, I"m currently reading Poker Tournament Formula, mainly because it deals with fast online structures, but I also have the following in my library - would one of these be better to get into, especially for a beginner, especially online?  Bear in mind that I"m just trying to ramp up my tourney knowhow while I build my skills and bankroll at cash primarily.

Sklansky - Tournament Poker (have read this once, a while back)
Harrington on Hold "Em (have all 3 - relevant for online?)
Full Tilt Strategy Guide (some say it"s very good, but I want to walk before I can run)
McEvoy - Tournament Poker
McEvoy - How To Win No-Limit Hold Em Tournaments
Nelson - Kill Everyone
Anything else...?  Phil Gordon?  Jon Vorhaus?

Once again, thanks so much - the response has been amazing (and everybody"s been kind enough not to call me an idiot!  Yet...)

[noble1]

Sklansky - Tournament Poker (have read this once, a while back)
Harrington on Hold "Em (have all 3 - relevant for online?)
Full Tilt Strategy Guide (some say it"s very good, but I want to walk before I can run)
McEvoy - Tournament Poker
McEvoy - How To Win No-Limit Hold Em Tournaments
Nelson - Kill Everyone
Anything else...?  Phil Gordon?  Jon Vorhaus?

Lee Nelsons kill everyone is the most relevant to the buy in you are playing imo.

starting out in these low buy in mtts is tough as you still need fairly good reading skills to do well consistently.Just keep it tight ish.play straight forward poker and do not bluff to much and every hand you are not in try to put people on hands all the time,as you get better your reads will do so as you practice them all the time...
[no watching porn,no watching footie on tv when you are not involved in a hand etc etc practice reading others  ]

[tonyj444]

I haven"t read most of those but would definitely reccommend Harrington.  Superb book.

[Honeybadg]

Instant all in for me ... do you really want to be in the hand ... fold is fine but feels like you are trying to limp to the money.

All in might get called by all kinds of hands that get you into a coin flip situation ... plus weaker aces (likely suited - who cares?) which you are miles ahead of.

If you are up against JJ,QQ,KK,AA you are in a lot of trouble but you are anyway after most flops ... you will play if you hit the J ... and lose to all of them.

If you fold after the flop you are in the big blind next hand ... and likely will play with a worse hand with no fold equity for all your chips.

AQ and AK are mightmare bad outcomes ... but assuming you are against 7 other players the time ... I think you have to push ...

Double the chips then just fold it and wait.

Harrington is where to start I expect ...

Louis

[Amethyst]

I"m relatively new to tourneys, just playing one a week to dip my toe in he water, so would appreciate any advice as to what I did wrong here, or might have done later.  Normally I"m a 6max LHE player.

Online tourney, 16 players left of 66, 10 paid.  Blinds are 100/200.  I have about 1,800 in chips and am UTG.

I am dealt  :as: jh - I come in for 500.  (Should I have pushed all-in at this stage? -

was this a LHE torny (you don"t actually say)?  If so, can u push all-in from utg ? Surely you raised the max (200 + blinds = 500, so now 800 in the pot) so no real fold equity to anyone with a decent stack + half decent cards. Beats me why villain didn"t rr to 1600 to try to isolate you.

Am i wrong, i don"t play limit