Author Topic: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??  (Read 36429 times)

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kinboshi

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #120 on: January 19, 2009, 14:16:47 PM »


...

The casinos won"t commit dealers and the additional staff to 3-day events (at this level of buy-in where they receive no juice).


There is no juice paid by the players, but the casino"s do not provide their services for free. APAT / Blue Square have to pay a sum to Grosvenor Casinos (and I"m sure to DTD) for each event.


BlueSQ paying the Grosvenors is like taking money from one pocket and putting it into the other - as they belong to the same group.  So in effect, at the Grosvenor casinos the cost to BlueSQ/APAT is actually accounted for within the sponsorship costs.  Obviously, at non-Grosvenor casinos this isn"t the case.

Quote
Presumably, should the decision be made to extend the National events to 3 days... thereby putting an extra 200 people in the casino on a Friday... it may be possible to get the sponsor to foot the additional costs [post recession, obv!!].


Maybe a few a season could be 3-dayers, but not the majority. So two day ones is impossible...


Contradictory??  


No, I don"t think so.  The sponsor was unable/unwilling to support the regionals this season (and last season to a degree arguably).  So we are probably close to the limit as to the number of days we can get out of them.  But I"m sure the "blue riband" events that attract the most people and the most attention could interest them into extending these to 3-day events.

Quote
Otherwise, a top post by Daniel San.  :D


Aren"t they all?  (That was rhetorical, no need to answer :D)

Quote
For those advocating that we [the players] could / should pay juice on top of the buy-in... Why?

For years, poker players have been complaining that the juice has been too high. Particularly on the big televised tours... the tours all have big sponsorship deals and TV income, yet they still want the players to not only provide the vast majority of the prize money (for WSOP, read "all prize money"), but also to pay a registration fee (juice) on top.

What APAT is doing is showing that it is not necessary for us to pay the juice, but that the sponsor should foot that bill as well as add value to the prize pool.


With the Nationals I agree 100%.  They get to hold the prestigious events, and enjoy the publicity and increased custom they bring.

With the regionals, I don"t think charging a few quid for dealers, buffets, etc., is an issue.  Without this "juice" the regionals (in last year"s guise) aren"t really feasible.  With juice...I don"t know?

Quote
The bottom line, IMHO... the APAT Nationals should be extended to 3-days, but only at such time that the additional costs* incurred can be negotiated with the sponsor(s).

*These costs to include suitable recompense for APAT officials.

The End



What about the additional cost for a lot of the players who "extend" themselves above their current bankroll to play in these events?  For many, the additional expenses on hotels, etc., might place the Nationals beyond their means.  Of course, there are many that wouldn"t be affected by this, but many (and I"d say a significant minority) would be.  This would run against the APAT philosophy imo.

The End (until the next post)
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kinboshi

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #121 on: January 19, 2009, 14:20:08 PM »

anyone thought that casinos get some juice when an APAT tourney is in progress as there is the best part of 200 people buying adult juice at the bar , dont tell me they dont get a healthy whack from that area


Of course, this is one of the reasons for getting us in the door.  They probably look at the poker as a loss-leader, and it"s the money spent behind the bar and on the pit games that provides the revenue for them.

But it wouldn"t surprise me if they don"t think about it like this.  The poker room is probably a separate "business unit" that has to justify its existence independently.
"Running hurts up to a point and then it doesn't get any worse."  Ann Trason

RioRodent

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #122 on: January 19, 2009, 15:33:22 PM »



...

The casinos won"t commit dealers and the additional staff to 3-day events (at this level of buy-in where they receive no juice).


There is no juice paid by the players, but the casino"s do not provide their services for free. APAT / Blue Square have to pay a sum to Grosvenor Casinos (and I"m sure to DTD) for each event.


BlueSQ paying the Grosvenors is like taking money from one pocket and putting it into the other - as they belong to the same group.  So in effect, at the Grosvenor casinos the cost to BlueSQ/APAT is actually accounted for within the sponsorship costs.  Obviously, at non-Grosvenor casinos this isn"t the case.

Quote
Presumably, should the decision be made to extend the National events to 3 days... thereby putting an extra 200 people in the casino on a Friday... it may be possible to get the sponsor to foot the additional costs [post recession, obv!!].


Maybe a few a season could be 3-dayers, but not the majority. So two day ones is impossible...


Contradictory??  

No, I don"t think so.  The sponsor was unable/unwilling to support the regionals this season (and last season to a degree arguably).  So we are probably close to the limit as to the number of days we can get out of them.  But I"m sure the "blue riband" events that attract the most people and the most attention could interest them into extending these to 3-day events.



So 3 day events aren"t impossible... they could happen, they have happened (once).





Quote
Otherwise, a top post by Daniel San.  :D


Aren"t they all?  (That was rhetorical, no need to answer :D)

Quote
For those advocating that we [the players] could / should pay juice on top of the buy-in... Why?

For years, poker players have been complaining that the juice has been too high. Particularly on the big televised tours... the tours all have big sponsorship deals and TV income, yet they still want the players to not only provide the vast majority of the prize money (for WSOP, read "all prize money"), but also to pay a registration fee (juice) on top.

What APAT is doing is showing that it is not necessary for us to pay the juice, but that the sponsor should foot that bill as well as add value to the prize pool.


With the Nationals I agree 100%.  They get to hold the prestigious events, and enjoy the publicity and increased custom they bring.

With the regionals, I don"t think charging a few quid for dealers, buffets, etc., is an issue.  Without this "juice" the regionals (in last year"s guise) aren"t really feasible.  With juice...I don"t know?

Quote
The bottom line, IMHO... the APAT Nationals should be extended to 3-days, but only at such time that the additional costs* incurred can be negotiated with the sponsor(s).

*These costs to include suitable recompense for APAT officials.

The End



What about the additional cost for a lot of the players who "extend" themselves above their current bankroll to play in these events?  For many, the additional expenses on hotels, etc., might place the Nationals beyond their means.  Of course, there are many that wouldn"t be affected by this, but many (and I"d say a significant minority) would be.  This would run against the APAT philosophy imo.

The End (until the next post)


We are all amatuers... some may have a totally seperate poker bankroll, which they use for all poker expenses, however I suspect for the vast majority, playing APAT events is more a social event that can be paid for out of "diposable income".

Those that don"t want to / can"t make it a 3 day weekend... well, they don"t have to buy-in in to Day 1a click-fest, they can take part in the (now slightly less over-subscribed) Day 1b click-fest. They are not dis-advantaged, they can still try and get a seat for Saturday just as they do now.

As for bankroll management...

According to Arnold Snyder"s "The Poker Tournament Formula", a "skilled" player should have a minimum bankroll of £2121 to play in 200 runner, £75 tournaments. If you include the cost of a cheap hotel room and call £100 / tournament then the figure is £2828.

I suspect that not many of those playing at Walsall in Feb are "bankrolled" to play it... my self included. But, that doesn"t stop way in excess of 200 wanting to play!
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

BOINGBLITZ

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2009, 02:30:12 AM »
Can I have the prize for "Post of the Year" now please ??
LATVIAN O/L CHAMPION 2008.
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IRISH AMATEUR CHAMPION 2009, in memory of Bill Young
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Baldus New

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2009, 14:31:44 PM »
Wow what a read this was  ;D

First up, Des and the boys, you do a great job under difficult circumstances and the fact that everyone feels so strongly and disappointed about not being able to get in, is surely testament to how good these events are and how many people want to play.

When these sort of debates end, with people no longer unhappy that they can"t get in, that"s when we have a REAL problem.

Everyone has a valid point to a certain extent with their views depending upon their own circumstances and what gives them an edge, to get a seat at the event.

I personally think what we have, with the exception of the loss of the local regional's, which given the current financial climate is understandable, is great.

The main issue is that demand outstrips supply because the product APAT offers is such a good one and offers great value for money, with a great play structure.

Two day ones would be great, if there were enough volunteers and cash to fund this but at present, with the current economic climate, I think APAT have done a superb job to maintain the level of obvious sponsorship that they have.

This leaves us with the option of adding "juice" to the buy in to help fund this but this seems to have mixed reviews and go against the whole point of the APAT idea.

Another option could be to extend the first day by starting earlier and finishing later or reducing the chips / blind level times but this would detract from the fantastic structure we already have and could not fit in that many extra players anyway.

So what does this leave us with? To be honest not much more than we have already as an option, as whatever method APAT choose to help fairly distribute the seats, someone will be unhappy at missing out.

Maybe an option could be to ask Blue Sq if they could set up some form of reward points system for APAT, where as part of the sponsorship deal with them, any APAT member that played on-line and paid a rake to Blue Sq on the cash games or a registration fee to them to play an on-line tournament, a proportion of this could be set aside in a separate fund to be used to help APAT develop their events further.

This would not cost members any extra (Win), APAT would have a chance to gain some additional funding through the support of Blue Sq playing members (Win) and Blue Sq would no doubt see more APAT'ers playing, if they knew that they were helping our organisation a little (Win).

Could this be a possible option to explore to try and finance another day's play to help grow the events a little more? Just a thought  :)

Alternatively, Des could quit, his boys could refuse to help and the tour goes down the pan, in which case no one wants to play, loads of seats are available but no one actually cares!!!!!! (Not really my preferred option but it might help people to remember that these events sell out fast for a reason  ::))

Anyway, if you turn up early at Walsall and get on the alternates list, you'll probably be able to have my seat by 3.00pm after I've donked my chips off with no real hand, being in a pot that I really shouldn't be in but at least I will have made someone happy  ;D

BOINGBLITZ

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #125 on: January 22, 2009, 03:43:23 AM »
doubt it......people are talking about setting off for the casino at 7am to be first in the queue !!
LATVIAN O/L CHAMPION 2008.
WELSH O/L CHAMPION 2009
IRISH AMATEUR CHAMPION 2009, in memory of Bill Young
WELSH O/L PLO CHAMPION 2013
Bronze medalist 2009 & Captain 2010 ENGLAND team.
CAPTAIN 4-TIME O/L CHAMPS WALSALL / WEST MIDLANDS.
No.1 ranked Online 2009.
R-up Sth Euro O/L PLO 2010
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Baldus New

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2009, 10:25:05 AM »
Why so negative, if you know they are leaving to get there at 7am, get there at 6am  ;D

Not rocket science really, unlike the clickfest ;)


Jon MW

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2009, 10:25:36 AM »

Why so negative, if you know they are leaving to get there at 7am, get there at 6am  ;D

Not rocket science really, unlike the clickfest ;)




I"ve heard some people are already there
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SirPercival

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #128 on: January 22, 2009, 10:35:51 AM »


Why so negative, if you know they are leaving to get there at 7am, get there at 6am  ;D

Not rocket science really, unlike the clickfest ;)




I"ve heard some people are already there


handcuffed to the rail apparantly!

HaworthBantam

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #129 on: January 22, 2009, 10:44:54 AM »



Why so negative, if you know they are leaving to get there at 7am, get there at 6am  ;D

Not rocket science really, unlike the clickfest ;)




I"ve heard some people are already there


handcuffed to the rail apparantly!


Your furry handcuffs or Jons ?  :D

Baldus New

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Re: TIME FOR TWO DAY ONES ??
« Reply #130 on: January 23, 2009, 15:00:24 PM »
No doubt getting there early for Season 4. lol