check raise or check jam?

[mal666]

Ave=90k 12left/ 6max no cash increase till final. $3.6k ftw.
PokerStars Game #27817082142: Tournament #160529150, $40+$4 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (800/1600) - 2009/05/04 19:55:27 WET [2009/05/04 14:55:27 ET]
Table "160529150 56" 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: luukk1 (126361 in chips)
Seat 2: budges75 (35063 in chips)
Seat 3: mal666 (107204 in chips)
Seat 4: ToM_P73 (224387 in chips)
Seat 5: mouchas (219794 in chips)
Seat 6: swagger man (52999 in chips)
luukk1: posts the ante 150
budges75: posts the ante 150
mal666: posts the ante 150
ToM_P73: posts the ante 150
mouchas: posts the ante 150
swagger man: posts the ante 150
budges75: posts small blind 800
mal666: posts big blind 1600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mal666 :: ::
ToM_P73: folds
mouchas: folds
swagger man: raises 3200 to 4800
luukk1: calls 4800
budges75: folds
mal666: calls 3200
*** FLOP *** [ :: kh]
mal666: checks
swagger man: checks
luukk1: bets 6400
mal666: ?

[deanp27]

check raise to about 18k to give him chance to spaz over the top of you with his stack size

[AMRN]

you only ask about raising or jamming - what about flat calling, then leading the turn?

[mal666]

you only ask about raising or jamming - what about flat calling, then leading the turn?

c/c c/r maybe(but we give him chance to peel river for free), never c/c lead here imo.

[noble1]

lol i luv these mal    there is a similar one on blonde but its a 1 suit flop 4 way hero in sb middle set..All i"ll say is some see this as ""std get your chips in"" and tbh if i had no reads here then i"d be looking to get as many chips in as possible.
But if i have been at the table for a while and had a chance to get a feel for my opponents/or have notes to go by on how they play draw and monsters then i"m prepared to play differently and adapt to what i think my opponents ranges are.

i can see why you posted it as getting 67bb ish in or as much as you can by the river is no means a easy feat here assuming the opponents left by this stage are 1/2 decent..and seeming there only 12 left i"m gonna assume that they are not total idiots...

any reads or general feel for how your opponents have played up to now?

[Chipaccrual]

I"m def calling this and seeing a turn.  Gives you more options as the feel is for a drawing hand.

And I"d be in no rush to get my chips in.  I think I"m ahead at the moment, but would be wary.

[Swinebag]

check raise to about 18k to give him chance to spaz over the top of you with his stack size

without a read I"d probably do this.

depending on reads, flat calling or shoving can also be good here.

[mal666]

any reads or general feel for how your opponents have played up to now?

We just broke from 3 tables down to 2, unfortunately i never had the pleasure to play against luuk1 at any previous point. All we have to go on is a quick opr that reveals he`s a losing player @ over -40%roi. On the other hand swagger man is

+60%
so really its a dream spot imo, swagger man can only call with kk or 55 (both unlikely obv) and our only task is to extract the max from the clown luukk1

[noble1]

after luukk1 weak bet i"m finding it difficult to put him on a strong top pair hand and i favour him to have a flush draw if he has 55 then i"m gonna spew,or he has 88 99 TT JJ maybe QQ etc KQcc KJcc are contenders as are off suit
swagger man checking the king is interesting so if we call and he smooths the pot still wont be inflated enough for me.
Our juicy target has led and i"d want to isolate him and try to get 2 streets of value out of him,so i"d check raise to 20,000 and offer him around 3to1 to chase the draw or bad calls with top pair etc... i cannot see any value here slow playing with a decent stack size but if swagger man wakes up with a 3bet check raise then i"d lay bottom set down..if a blank on the turn i"ll lead around 30,000
and hope for a bad call , blank river i"d expect him to fold if we lead, so now maybe check and hope to induce a bluff from him maybe the best approach or he had a king all along  
if luukk1 re-raises our 2bet on the flop then its time to ship em in and pray to the poker gods its a draw or something we are beating  
if a club comes turn i"m not going to slow down,i"ll still lead 30,000 he calls but check the river and fold if he bets,obviously non pairing board [but check below for revised line] if he goes all in on the turn to a club, i"m calling at just about the correct odds to bink a pairing card on the river....
if club river hope for check check though are any in favour of 3 barrels if a club comes on river? i"m swayed towards unbridled aggression sometimes...DIFFERENT LINE TURN - my logic on the turn being if villain has a  acXc hand he will jam flop or turn if club comes pretty much no? so if he only calls turn club i"m in favour of 3rd barrel river..

[deanp27]

check raising is better than leading, which is much better than check calling IMO.

Check/Calling with these hands has merit when you have position, but check/calling and then leading is such a weird line and makes no sense. If he has a draw he gets there for free, if he has Kx and the club comes down it kills your action and you play this hand OOP against 1 or 2 opponents. you may as well lead the pot and try and induce action from Kx or a semi bluff from some sort of draw, or maybe a call from a mid-pair.

If the opponent is bad i like raising smallish to induce him to either call or shove with his KQ/KJ type hands.

FWIW there is no way i ever fold a set on this board whatever the action (rightly or wrongly).

[mal666]

fwiw here is the hand,took the push route for max value vs clown, he gets there obv put thats not the point. Happy with the action.
<a href="http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/flash/replayer.swf?pokerhandid=473510" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/flash/replayer.swf?pokerhandid=473510</a>

[deanp27]

fair enough

i think the outcome would have been the same whether you make it 20k or shove. He either reshoves or calls off on the turn.

nh and ul

i think a decent player 3bets his AQs here as well.

[AMRN]

check raising is better than leading, which is much better than check calling IMO.

Check/Calling with these hands has merit when you have position, but check/calling and then leading is such a weird line and makes no sense. If he has a draw he gets there for free, if he has Kx and the club comes down it kills your action and you play this hand OOP against 1 or 2 opponents. you may as well lead the pot and try and induce action from Kx or a semi bluff from some sort of draw, or maybe a call from a mid-pair.

If the opponent is bad i like raising smallish to induce him to either call or shove with his KQ/KJ type hands.

FWIW there is no way i ever fold a set on this board whatever the action (rightly or wrongly).

Do you no think that by playing only the standard prescribed way, you are predictable and therefore exploitable? you say check calling and then leading is such a weird line and makes no sense..... surely in some circumstances that"s a good thing?  In this scenario, to a player capable of reading between the lines, our check call may look like a flush draw, then a small turn lead could look like a weak attempt to buy a cheap river, and might induce bigger action.

[Swinebag]

I love the check/call then lead the turn. Not because its "correct", but because its a great way to mix up your play and would confuse the hell out of your opponent

[mal666]

I love the check/call then lead the turn. Not because its "correct", but because its a great way to mix up your play and would confuse the hell out of your opponent

but he just flats the lead obv, then we stack off bad on the river when he gets there.