Honesty at the table??

[PocketAmazing]

Hello All,

First of all I want to thank all players and organisers for an enjoyable game of poker this weekend (well the day I lasted anyway). I enjoyed the structure and the banter on the day, but one event left a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth (not the scotch pies at the first break).

For those that we"re on table 2 after the first break you will know what I"m talking about but for those that weren"t I"ll fill you in.

I'm sitting on about 12k just above the average finally get my signature hand  :: :: sweet!! (pocket invincible, long story)

The long and short of it is I get down to the river and I've hit trips on the flop I got 4125 left, I push all in. The player 2 too my left calls throwing in a 5k chip and shows 2 pair. Win for me, opponent gets his change.

In stacking my chips and getting a count of what I have the next hand has started I realise that I only have about 19k  

While I'm figuring this out the dealer has missed out the BB or mucked the hand before the player had a chance to play something like that so the floor manager is called over.

After this is sorted out I bring to the attention of the dealer and the manager that I feel there has been a miss count possibly in the change given back at which I got a blunt "last hand nothing can be done about it" my opponent had been given 8025 change instead of 825 the player in question agrees with what I'm saying but has said the floor manager has said to play on and so I lose out on 7.2k in chips

Where is the fault here? Clearly the dealer but given the situation I would in all honesty declare I had too much change given back maybe I'm too honest but would expect others to do the same.

Thoughts??
Pocket Amazing

[WASP]

I don"t know what can be done here if it was me I would have chucked you the chips but we had similar problems on table 9 which is a shame because the Maybury is one of my favourite casino"s and the staff are usually spot on.

From the first hand to my last our dealer was constantly dealing wrong, giving out incorrect change, taking the wrong money, dealing flops before the betting had finished, missing players out etc etc etc.  The TD knew he was bad as he kept coming over and shouting at him.  We also had no rotation of dealers which is bad practice in any casino to avoid collusion etc.  So even after the dinner break we had the same dealer and he cost one guy a lot of money and nearly cost me a lot when he gave me 250 change instead of 1500.

It does spoil the occasion when your dealer is dire and the TD doesn"t take control, we tried to make light of it on our table but after 6 hours it was getting tedious.

[DrMarbles]

This is exactly the sort of situation which should mark out APAT events as being different from other tournaments.

I am reticent to give my opinion of the other player without him giving his side of what happened - would be interested how he/other players at the table viewed this as initial thoughts are not good.

[Glorious]

When I heard about this on Sunday afternoon I couldn"t really believe that the player acknowledged he had too many chips but didn"t sort it out - he would have known as soon as he was given his change - very disappointing, whether the TD says play on or not, it"s a simple one to sort between yourselves (and it"s also simple to find out who the player was).

FWIW, our dealer after the break (dealer was changed at this point - table 4) hadn"t dealt with antes before, but he was receptive to guys like Geo2Loose giving him help, and he dealt well with a particularly vocal gent who everyone would have heard.

[JOKER_IRVINE]

hey mate yeah feel like honesty is the best policy but guess not in this case must have been clearly obvious to the player that after throwing in a 5K chip getting 8750 back would seem a little fishy

something happened at my table two people in the pot flop comes

Q,J,10 two are hearts player A leads out player B calls.

Turn brings a 3 no heart player A check raises player B and gets called

River a 9 no heart still both players check

player A states i was chasing the flush showing 8,2 hearts

Player B states i knew that showing Q,10 for two pair

player B starts to collect the chips just as i point out that player A still has a straight

player B starts shouting and swearing at me saying i have nothing to do with the hand. I politly reply i just thought the cards spoke for there selves the dealer then said i was right appologizing to player B for not noticing the straight. player B eventually surrenders the chips to player A but still continues to call me a F*****G  PRICK saying i was completely out of order. myslef thinking i hadn"t even done anything wrong appoligised for the sake of making things better at the table but he would not except continuing to mutter prick i say to the dealer that this is my first APAT and that i thought we were supposed to make this enjoyable for everyone the dealer agreed and asked him to watch his language.
Dindnt think i did anything wrong   besides that the event was enjoyable had a really good time and congrats to the winner  


:as: kh

[lukybugur]

Thanks for posting that Joker ... I was just about to (you saved me having to type all that).

To be fair, the only reason you got the abuse from Dan was because your complaint was loudest, earliest. At least four of us picked up on this and all four of us were going to get vocal about it.

Dan had explained in no uncertain terms that you were out of order and was silently backed up by Eck (one player I have 100% respect for) who confirmed it is between the dealer and the players IN the hand. I have not researched this since I have got home but personally I can understand that in a cash game when a player who hasn"t noticed he has a straight turns over his weak hand in a motion to muck. In a tournament though, when the hand has gone to showdown and both players show their hands (without mucking), it"s the best shown-down hand - mis-read or not - that should take it. Obv if player A mucks his hand face-down declaring "missed flush draw", he has no comeback at all.

To take it to the extreme, imagine you"re down to the last three in the Main Event. The dealer and the player mis-read the hand / board and ship it a pot to a player who has his tourney life at stake. Not speaking up COULD cost you $2Million, fame and glory.


To be entirely honest, I can see both sides of the coin here and I can"t say with 100% certainty that Player A in hand above DIDN"T muck his hand - it was face up, it was declared as a missed flush, and he didn"t notice that the pot was being shipped to the wrong player until Joker said. I just don"t know what rules we were playing to (Gala / APAT / whatever) and if they vary at all.

[AMRN]

A showdown is a showdown - and the best hand wins.  There is no rule that says it"s up to the players involved and the dealer to decide which is the best hand!!  If someone else at the table (or even someone railing!) notices that the other hand makes a straight and points it out, that is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. There is no requirement on a player to declare the value of his hand at showdown.

As for the insults and language (I didn"t witness it, so can"t comment specifically, and can only go on what is written in this thread) - will the treatment applied to Scouse and Noe be applied consistently?

[Roscopiko]

if he hasnt mucked and its a showdown then its simply a case of the cards speak imo

[Paulie_D]

A showdown is a showdown - and the best hand wins.  There is no rule that says it"s up to the players involved and the dealer to decide which is the best hand!!  If someone else at the table (or even someone railing!) notices that the other hand makes a straight and points it out, that is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. There is no requirement on a player to declare the value of his hand at showdown.

In tournaments only...

At a cash table...never unless I"m involved in the hand at showdown!

[Jon MW]

A showdown is a showdown - and the best hand wins.  There is no rule that says it"s up to the players involved and the dealer to decide which is the best hand!!  If someone else at the table (or even someone railing!) notices that the other hand makes a straight and points it out, that is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. There is no requirement on a player to declare the value of his hand at showdown.

In tournaments only...

At a cash table...never unless I"m involved in the hand at showdown!

I suspect that will be the common consensus

[undisputed]

hey mate yeah feel like honesty is the best policy but guess not in this case must have been clearly obvious to the player that after throwing in a 5K chip getting 8750 back would seem a little fishy

something happened at my table two people in the pot flop comes

Q,J,10 two are hearts player A leads out player B calls.

Turn brings a 3 no heart player A check raises player B and gets called

River a 9 no heart still both players check

player A states i was chasing the flush showing 8,2 hearts

Player B states i knew that showing Q,10 for two pair

player B starts to collect the chips just as i point out that player A still has a straight

player B starts shouting and swearing at me saying i have nothing to do with the hand. I politly reply i just thought the cards spoke for there selves the dealer then said i was right appologizing to player B for not noticing the straight. player B eventually surrenders the chips to player A but still continues to call me a F*****G  PRICK saying i was completely out of order. myslef thinking i hadn"t even done anything wrong appoligised for the sake of making things better at the table but he would not except continuing to mutter prick i say to the dealer that this is my first APAT and that i thought we were supposed to make this enjoyable for everyone the dealer agreed and asked him to watch his language.
Dindnt think i did anything wrong   besides that the event was enjoyable had a really good time and congrats to the winner  


:as: kh

Ok...agreed,  firstly i will apologise, but but had had too many slip ups from players...and the dealer up to this point in what is usually a structured and organised game. And just to point out, that you may remember, the very next hand, after calling a river bet i was just shown the Q of spades, which i was beating, only to then be shown the about 15 seconds later for the rivered str8. . . after this slowroll, straight after the aforementioned incident, i sorta lost the plot. . . hope it isn"t taken personally. . .   I may consider having the odd lemonade between drinks in future, but as you may remember, it wasn"t just the one incident, but several. . .and as well as people conducting themselves in a reasonable manner, i also believe correct poker etiquette should be adhered to, which really wasn"t the case. . . .

[Mikeyboy9361]

We are talking APAT here, and I can"t believe either incident wasn"t sorted amicably. In the first incident with the wrong change given amounting to 8K in chips, to me not declaring the error is tantamount to cheating. And in the other incident I have played in many a tournament when the dealer has mis read the winning hand and one of the other players has put them right. In fact Neil that happened in Walsall on our table, and no one said anything un toward. This type of behaviour goes against everything that APAT stands for IMO.

[AMRN]

A showdown is a showdown - and the best hand wins.  There is no rule that says it"s up to the players involved and the dealer to decide which is the best hand!!  If someone else at the table (or even someone railing!) notices that the other hand makes a straight and points it out, that is perfectly acceptable and reasonable. There is no requirement on a player to declare the value of his hand at showdown.

In tournaments only...

At a cash table...never unless I"m involved in the hand at showdown!

I suspect that will be the common consensus

well yes, but then the thread is talking about a specific tournament situation

[AMRN]

We are talking APAT here, and I can"t believe either incident wasn"t sorted amicably. In the first incident with the wrong change given amounting to 8K in chips, to me not declaring the error is tantamount to cheating. And in the other incident I have played in many a tournament when the dealer has mis read the winning hand and one of the other players has put them right. In fact Neil that happened in Walsall on our table, and no one said anything un toward. This type of behaviour goes against everything that APAT stands for IMO.

Spot on - it"s one thing to utilise circumstances to create an edge in a cash game, or even in a standard poker tourney, but APAT is about all of the good things in poker and for many players it is an introduction to live play. As a set of "APAT players" it"s up to ALL of us to make it a great tour to play, and to make sure the events will keep new players interested in the game, and help them to learn all the good things about live poker etiquette.

[Glorious]

In every cardroom I"ve played the tourney rules state that the "cards speak" - tbh, I still can"t get over someone sitting in a tourney with (loads of) chips they know they shouldn"t have "cos the dealer pushed them too much change