Honesty at the table??

[samuel_9]

ill b there at the end of august hope i can stay awake this time will b getting some long practis on the tables

[samuel_9]

i c the wcoap starts at 4 what time do you think the sesson will finish roughly

[MintTrav]

I was on table 2 and  wittnessed the hand. The recipient of the extra chips made the final table. He made it very obvious that after the ruling he would not be relinquishing his extra chips.

This makes it a million times worse imo, if he would have been crippled (as was posted in another reply) without these chips then he has essentially done someone else out of making the money. No doubt he would"ve had to do some work after this incident to make it to the final table but the fact still remains that he shouldn"t have had that opportunity. He"s a blatant cheat and nothing more than a lowly thief IMO.

It doesn"t make it worse - it makes it the same. The situation should have been resolved at the time but, after that, do you expect that he would then deliberately play badly because of what happened? Do you think that what happened wouldn"t be so bad if he got knocked out soon after? The incident gave him a better chance of going deep - whether he actually did is irrelevant to the decision at the time.

[CrizzyConnor]

I was on table 2 and  wittnessed the hand. The recipient of the extra chips made the final table. He made it very obvious that after the ruling he would not be relinquishing his extra chips.

This makes it a million times worse imo, if he would have been crippled (as was posted in another reply) without these chips then he has essentially done someone else out of making the money. No doubt he would"ve had to do some work after this incident to make it to the final table but the fact still remains that he shouldn"t have had that opportunity. He"s a blatant cheat and nothing more than a lowly thief IMO.

It doesn"t make it worse - it makes it the same. The situation should have been resolved at the time but, after that, do you expect that he would then deliberately play badly because of what happened? Do you think that what happened wouldn"t be so bad if he got knocked out soon after? The incident gave him a better chance of going deep - whether he actually did is irrelevant to the decision at the time.

Yes it makes it worse because not only has he cheated the initial player out of his chips but he"s also cheated someone out of making it into the money, not to mention the numerous players he must"ve stacked on his way to the final table.

Do you think that what happened wouldn"t be so bad if he got knocked out soon after?

Of course it would still be as bad, however, had he had been knocked out soon after then less people would have been affected by his actions, so while the severity of the cheating remains the same the consequences of his actions are worse. So therefore IMO it is worse.

[Mikeyboy9361]

What this guy did is reprehensible, and the fact that he got to the final table just shows he  has no conscience! Every body who was on that table must know who he is, lets name and shame. What he did wasn"t a mistake he knew what he was doing, if this player was a true APAT player he would have given up those chips gracefully, and acted like 99% of APAT players do.

[kinboshi]

Shouldn"t the player be given the right of response?  Innocent until proven guilty, etc.?  I don"t know who it was, but maybe they were new to live poker - maybe they followed the instructions of the TD and were worried that it would look like cheating if they passed chips to another player.  Maybe they thought that the chips were rightly theirs?

IF, the situation is as described previously then I"d expect most players to do the honourable thing.  However, if they haven"t intentionally tried to be dishonest then the witch hunt is a little harsh.  People make mistakes.  I certainly did with my AJ shove against KK...

[Mikeyboy9361]

"I certainly did with my AJ shove against KK..." LOL

Okay innocent "til proven guilty, but the silence is damning......

[APAT]

There is no innocent and guilty here, the guy did not break any rules, so he has nothing to answer for and he is almost certainly unaware of this thread.  That said, he needs to understand what our general expectations are in these situations and he will be informed of that.  Other than that, no witch hunt here please, that"s not our style either.

[Mikeyboy9361]

Okay.

[kinboshi]

There is no innocent and guilty here, the guy did not break any rules, so he has nothing to answer for and he is almost certainly unaware of this thread.  That said, he needs to understand what our general expectations are in these situations and he will be informed of that.  Other than that, no witch hunt here please, that"s not our style either.

He certainly didn"t break any rules, and like I mentioned if he had passed some chips back to the other player after the TD had made his ruling - then he WOULD have been breaking the rules.

So if it wasn"t until after the ruling had been made that he realised his mistake, there"s not really much he can do.

[woolly]

I seem to have missed out on all the shenanigans - as pointed out above, it was very peaceful over on table 7.  A bit surreal to have all 3 of the Hooper Street Massive drawn on the same table and even more weird to have what I assume is poker"s only other Wrexham supporter (Jason) there too.  A few dealing mishaps, but nothing too outrageous from where I sat.

This was my first APAT tourney.  I thought the organisation was excellent, the standard of play generally pretty high and the mood of the tourney (in terms of the interaction between the players) probably the nicest I"ve played in.  There are almost always a few cheating, whinging or just generally miserable b***ards in any poker room (I count anything under 20% as a relative success!).  Mind you, it"s easy for me to say - I"d have been throwing a right wobbly if someone short changed me to that extent and the case discussed above does sound slightly shocking, not least because of the scale. 

And, kinboshi, since (I think) it was my KK that ko"d your AJ, I"m sure you"ll be pleased to know that what goes around comes around - I finally went out myself with AJ against KK.  Good to meet you and the rest of the guys / gals.

[kinboshi]

Yes, it was your KK.  I knew you had at least a medium pair in that spot, but was getting so short I thought why not?  Soon found out why not...

Yes, I thought our first table was good fun.  Disagree about the dealing though from the first dealer - every hand was a mishap as far as I was concerned.  Like I mentioned at the weekend, I play at DTD most weeks and I think I"m spoilt by the quality and consistent standard of the dealers to be honest.  

The second dealer was better, even though he made a serious blunder on your hand when the other player hadn"t noticed your raise from UTG of 2K and then tried to raise himself to 1.5K.  No one was sure if he"d said raise before or after the chips went it - and I think that"s pretty central to what the course of action should have been.  If he said raise before the bet, then he should be made to min-raise to 4K.  If he threw the chips in and then said raise, I think the correct ruling is that he should be made to call. 

However, the dealer compounded the situation by returning the chips to the player and mucking his cards for him.  That was a big mistake imo.  The player has to be aware of action that"s taking place (and this dealer was leaving the chips in front of the players when they bet, so there was no excuse for not noticing your raise).  The dealer shouldn"t just take it upon himself to return the chips and not enforce the action.

When the floor was called over, he made a common sense decision in my book.  The player didn"t much the cards himself, it was the dealer who grabbed them from in front of the player immediately after returning the 1500 chips.  The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck (this is probably not the right thing to do in many people"s minds), and make the player make the call.  From then the hand played out quite well for you !

Be interesting to hear other people"s reading on this situation and the decision.

[K3vl4rUK]

Yes, it was your KK.  I knew you had at least a medium pair in that spot, but was getting so short I thought why not?  Soon found out why not...

Yes, I thought our first table was good fun.  Disagree about the dealing though from the first dealer - every hand was a mishap as far as I was concerned.  Like I mentioned at the weekend, I play at DTD most weeks and I think I"m spoilt by the quality and consistent standard of the dealers to be honest.  

The second dealer was better, even though he made a serious blunder on your hand when the other player hadn"t noticed your raise from UTG of 2K and then tried to raise himself to 1.5K.  No one was sure if he"d said raise before or after the chips went it - and I think that"s pretty central to what the course of action should have been.  If he said raise before the bet, then he should be made to min-raise to 4K.  If he threw the chips in and then said raise, I think the correct ruling is that he should be made to call. 

However, the dealer compounded the situation by returning the chips to the player and mucking his cards for him.  That was a big mistake imo.  The player has to be aware of action that"s taking place (and this dealer was leaving the chips in front of the players when they bet, so there was no excuse for not noticing your raise).  The dealer shouldn"t just take it upon himself to return the chips and not enforce the action.

When the floor was called over, he made a common sense decision in my book.  The player didn"t much the cards himself, it was the dealer who grabbed them from in front of the player immediately after returning the 1500 chips.  The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck (this is probably not the right thing to do in many people"s minds), and make the player make the call.  From then the hand played out quite well for you !

Be interesting to hear other people"s reading on this situation and the decision.

is tht the J7 diamonds hand tht i ccame bk to find the TD in my way? lol

[coprey]

The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck

Once the cards touch the muck, the hand is dead. I dont think there can be any exceptions to this rule.

[Swinebag]

The floor decided to retrieve the players hand from the muck

Once the cards touch the muck, the hand is dead. I dont think there can be any exceptions to this rule.

I think, if they can be easily identified and if they have been mucked by accident, you should be allowed to retrieve them and am pretty sure this is a correct ruling