A hand that has been bugging me... opinions?

[Mikeyboy9361]

Steve, I feel you are being un fairly lambasted here! 99% of us are calling here, but your question whether to lay it down a wait to get your chips in first is valid, I have come to the conclusion in the last month or so that it is the hands you lay down, more than the ones you play that determine whether you run deep in these tournaments. In the league game on Sunday I went out with when quite handily chipped up, I knew there was every chance my opponent could have hit trips on a very dry flop ( all under cards as well ), but still called. If I had won I would have been top 5, but equally I could have laid "em down and had plenty of time to make the top 5, on my terms.
Like every one else I would have called here, but your questions are valid, and I would be doing the same soul searching.  

[braders_24]

I think there is more to consider than a simple snap call.

If this guy keeps shoving he is clearly not a very confident post flop player and assuming you are, you should really want to be taking that edge against him post flop at a later stage.  The whole arguement of getting your chips in first is a very key point as well, you still have a lot of Fold Equity with 31 BB left, there could be better spots later on where you can maybe make a squeeze on Raise-Fold Man.

I think I would have folded in this situation and I"m not a particularly tight player, I just think this situation screamed coin-flip or domination.  There are of course so many other factors to consider - I mean,  I"m not sure how your image was at the table, were you appearing LAG, TAG etc etc, these factors would of course impact the villian"s decision on whether a shove against your range was a good play and would in turn give more or less credibility to his holdings.

[LongshanksED]

5 handed it would be a tough lay down and don"t think I couldve done it and wouldve insta snap called thinking I"m at best in a 50/50 race and thinking I"m gonna take the chip lead

But poker is a game of incomplete info and using simple ABC poker as well as the gap concept it would be a tough tough fold. Laddering up to 4th place only gives you an extra $50. I have managed to lay jacks down pre flop with 2 instances of strength in front of me but doubt I wouldve done it after the bubbles burst  

[lukybugur]

OR, call knowing your ahead of his range ...

Good enough reason to ship them in IMO.

[deanp27]

I think there is more to consider than a simple snap call.

If this guy keeps shoving he is clearly not a very confident post flop player and assuming you are, you should really want to be taking that edge against him post flop at a later stage.  The whole arguement of getting your chips in first is a very key point as well, you still have a lot of Fold Equity with 31 BB left, there could be better spots later on where you can maybe make a squeeze on Raise-Fold Man.

I think I would have folded in this situation and I"m not a particularly tight player, I just think this situation screamed coin-flip or domination.  There are of course so many other factors to consider - I mean,  I"m not sure how your image was at the table, were you appearing LAG, TAG etc etc, these factors would of course impact the villian"s decision on whether a shove against your range was a good play and would in turn give more or less credibility to his holdings.

some points here:

hero"s table image is completely irrelevant as he hasn"t acted in the hand.
we may have some post flop edge but that is taken away by a guy who is playing like a shove-monkey
post flop edge is overrated, especially at this stage and not that deep- probably playing 2 streets max
squeezes aren"t possible vs a guy who doesn"t flat raises preflop

i agree there could be better spots but given description of villain in the OP i think this is a good spot as JJ beats his range and is a great opportunity to get in the big money, especially if you cripple the most aggro guy at the table.

[George2Loose]

Steve, you keep trying to find more and more reasons to fold!!!

Your tight enough imo- this is a snap high five hand in the air call. His range at this stage isn"t "racing at best" He probs makes this shove with 77+ KQ, KJ and if he"s loose as you say probably any pair and maybe any suited broadway. Maybe even suited connectors

[Ant1966]

My wife was watching and questioned the call.....

[samuel_9]

with 31BBLS  a rase and a re rase even in 5 handed  i would lay it down  why risk your hole tourny on a coin flip

[Marty719]

Steve, you keep trying to find more and more reasons to fold!!!

Your tight enough imo- this is a snap high five hand in the air call. His range at this stage isn"t "racing at best" He probs makes this shove with 77+ KQ, KJ and if he"s loose as you say probably any pair and maybe any suited broadway. Maybe even suited connectors

^^^^^^^^^^^^100% THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Swinebag]

with 31BBLS  a rase and a re rase even in 5 handed  i would lay it down  why risk your hole tourny on a coin flip

this is a bit results orientated.

Remember, the guy is shoving with a lot of hands that JJ dominates. This is too good a spot to pass on

[samuel_9]

i hear wat your saying but persoally i like 2 c the flop a dont like playing coin flips

[evilpie]

with 31BBLS  a rase and a re rase even in 5 handed  i would lay it down  why risk your hole tourny on a coin flip

You"re not risking your whole tourney.

You"re giving yourself a good chance of winning the thing rather than settling for 3rd or worse.

If you offer me this race with a bit of dead money in the pot already I"ll take it every time.

Are you saying that if he shows AQ face up you would pass?

[Swinebag]

i hear wat your saying but persoally i like 2 c the flop a dont like playing coin flips

no one likes to play coin flips but they are impossible to avoid if you want to win a donkament.

You cant be folding jacks to an allin just because you want to avoid the flip. As I put before, he will do this with pairs TT or worse and possibly AJ or worse as well as the coinflip hands.

[George2Loose]

Most people who don"t flip for it moan when their aces get cracked when they"re down to 1.5 big blinds

[UKChamp]

I think you have answered your own question, as everyone else says (ignoring the fact its jacks) the prior action tells you that the ranges are likely wide enough to give you value. One point which should not be ignored is the modest money jump in 4>5 place, so there is clearly little to be gained by folding and hoping for an elimination.

33bb deep 5 handed is not that deep given that you will have to widen your range to keep active enough to not be blinded away by frequently moving blinds. The reality is JJ plays more like an even bigger pair this short and this late in a MTT.

Worrying about it being a coin toss is missing the point, because there are many combinations of hands between UTG and BTN that clash (AK/AQ/AJ/KQ/QJ/KJ) that gives your hand even better value. That aside, even being a 54% favourite here headsup shouldnt bear any fear for you. The chances of you engineering spots where there is more of an advantage (without having to pay off to see a flop) are unlikely in what will prove a fairly action heavy situation.