[Paulie_D]

I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.

This.

All this talk of floating him on the flop...other than a K and you still won"t know where you are.

[Jon MW]

If he checks the turn for example I"d say you have a much better idea where you are.

(plus other variations which make floating a viable option)

[deanp27]

so have can"t have A9, KQ or any other draw then? not sure on suits on board or in our hole cards etc

it is player dependant but our hand does have equity here, just because we miss we don"t have to fold, especially with position.

[kinboshi]

I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.

This.

All this talk of floating him on the flop...other than a K and you still won"t know where you are.

The floating isn"t necessarily to hit.  If he doesn"t bet the turn, then you can bet out and he"s going to struggle to play back unless he has a hand where he thinks he"s ahead.  That"s the beauty of position.

[Paulie_D]

Flop is JT8...he"s led out on that flop and you have floated.

OK...let"s suppose the turn isn"t a Queen King.

Aren"t AKJT987 all scare cards for you?

Let"s suppose one of those falls and doesn"t make the flush.

He checks. Are you betting, if so how much and what are you hoping to represent?

Alternatively, if it"s a total brick (6 - 2) and he checks..same questions.

Finally, if it puts three to a flush out there, does this change your answers to the above?

Interesting discussion, I"ll be keen to see where it goes.

[deanp27]

it depends but we have position and what may be scare cards for us may also be scare cards for him, we will be able to narrow his holdings by his reaction/action on the turn.

also if he is on a draw our ace high may still have showdown value unimproved

[TopPair2Pair]

we have  ac ks

Baord was  jh tc

[George2Loose]

Raise the flop/fold to jam. I prefer to this a float this shallow.

He"ll most likely fold. People are donk live never have it

[noble1]

PokerStars Game #32545889108: Tournament #200909010, $10000+$300 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIV (3500/7000) - 2009/09/07 9:21:55 WET [2009/09/07 4:21:55 ET]
Table "200909010 18" 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Sowerss (423750 in chips)
Seat 3: Belabacsi (202948 in chips)
Seat 4: Sumpas (749329 in chips)
Seat 5: KevBoyStar (368435 in chips)
Seat 7: Festivuss (139613 in chips)
Seat 8: BeL0WaB0Ve (867425 in chips)
Seat 9: SCTrojans (238500 in chips)
Sowerss: posts the ante 875
Belabacsi: posts the ante 875
Sumpas: posts the ante 875
KevBoyStar: posts the ante 875
Festivuss: posts the ante 875
BeL0WaB0Ve: posts the ante 875
SCTrojans: posts the ante 875
Sumpas: posts small blind 3500
KevBoyStar: posts big blind 7000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Festivuss: folds
BeL0WaB0Ve: raises 9150 to 16150
SCTrojans: folds
Sowerss: folds
Belabacsi: calls 16150
Sumpas: folds
KevBoyStar: folds
*** FLOP *** [ Td]
BeL0WaB0Ve: checks
Belabacsi: bets 26750
BeL0WaB0Ve: raises 823650 to 850400 and is all-in
Belabacsi: calls 159173 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (664477) returned to BeL0WaB0Ve
*** TURN *** [ Td] []
*** RIVER *** [ Td ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BeL0WaB0Ve: shows [ ] (a pair of Jacks)
Belabacsi: shows [ ] (a pair of Queens)
BeL0WaB0Ve said, "nh"
Belabacsi collected 420771 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 420771 | Rake 0
Board [ Td ]
Seat 1: Sowerss folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 3: Belabacsi (button) showed [ ] and won (420771) with a pair of Queens
Seat 4: Sumpas (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: KevBoyStar (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Festivuss folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: BeL0WaB0Ve showed [ ] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 9: SCTrojans folded before Flop (didn"t bet)

[Marty719]

Raise the flop/fold to jam. I prefer to this a float this shallow.

He"ll most likely fold. People are donk live never have it

I hate raise/flop folding as he is likely to 3/bet shove all draws (where he may take a free card on the turn).  He also shuts down w/ weak hands like underpairs where he bets flop to see where he is - in this case we win the hand when he checks the turn and we fire ~900+ to keep pressure on. 

Flop is JT8...he"s led out on that flop and you have floated.

OK...let"s suppose the turn isn"t a Queen King.

Aren"t AKJT987 all scare cards for you?

Let"s suppose one of those falls and doesn"t make the flush.

He checks. Are you betting, if so how much and what are you hoping to represent?

Alternatively, if it"s a total brick (6 - 2) and he checks..same questions.

Finally, if it puts three to a flush out there, does this change your answers to the above?

Interesting discussion, I"ll be keen to see where it goes.

Regardless of turn, if we are checked to we are firing at it.  Scare cards for us r also scare cards for our opponent.  Obv if they call our turn bet, we have to shut down, but Id rather call flop/bet turn (where we can get him to fold a higher range when scare cards come (plus he prob doesnt re-shove draws on turn)) than re-pop on the flop where his 3-bet shoving range is considerably higher.

[noble1]

i"ll make a brief ish reply on how i"d play it and why based on the info you have given.

1. FLOP - call - i do not want to be seen/tagged as being weak tight and have the problem of more donk bets in the future. [has he seen you raise and fold to donk bets previously tp2p ?]
2. TURN - fold - if he fires again and no magical Queen arrives,if he checks then this is where i play it differently as to how others have suggested so far.If he checks then i will check also - why? - because if he does have a strong hand then he may be looking to check raise [us floating him may of occurred to him,incidentally if i were him i"d also have a check raise bluff in my repetoire of tricks as well ]

So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.

By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.

More or less this I think.

I"d raise less pre, flat this bet - pounce on any weakness on the turn.

It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc.

The floating isn"t necessarily to hit.  If he doesn"t bet the turn, then you can bet out and he"s going to struggle to play back unless he has a hand where he thinks he"s ahead.  That"s the beauty of position.

Regardless of turn, if we are checked to we are firing at it.

I will check the turn still with the point of floating [a delayed float] and i"d bet out if he checks the river but the sizing will have to be pot ish or maybe a slight over bet of the pot [just in case he thinks middle pair or TPWK is worth check calling] Also i met consider calling a reasonable bet on the river from him if he makes it [bluff catch a missed draw etc]

All player dependent/reads/how good they are etc but i hope at least this may of given you a few more ideas to think about. [The turn/4th street imo is the hardest to play/learn,most players pick up quickly how to play pre-flop and the flop ok and the river has few decisions to make, which leaves us with good ole 4th street,the one part where a lot of us c#ck up ]

[Chipaccrual]

i"ll make a brief ish reply on how i"d play it and why based on the info you have given.

1. FLOP - call - i do not want to be seen/tagged as being weak tight and have the problem of more donk bets in the future. [has he seen you raise and fold to donk bets previously tp2p ?]
2. TURN - fold - if he fires again and no magical Queen arrives,if he checks then this is where i play it differently as to how others have suggested so far.If he checks then i will check also - why? - because if he does have a strong hand then he may be looking to check raise [us floating him may of occurred to him,incidentally if i were him i"d also have a check raise bluff in my repetoire of tricks as well ]

So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.

By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.

More or less this I think.

I"d raise less pre, flat this bet - pounce on any weakness on the turn.

It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc.

The floating isn"t necessarily to hit.  If he doesn"t bet the turn, then you can bet out and he"s going to struggle to play back unless he has a hand where he thinks he"s ahead.  That"s the beauty of position.

Regardless of turn, if we are checked to we are firing at it.

I will check the turn still with the point of floating [a delayed float] and i"d bet out if he checks the river but the sizing will have to be pot ish or maybe a slight over bet of the pot [just in case he thinks middle pair or TPWK is worth check calling] Also i met consider calling a reasonable bet on the river from him if he makes it [bluff catch a missed draw etc]

All player dependent/reads/how good they are etc but i hope at least this may of given you a few more ideas to think about. [The turn/4th street imo is the hardest to play/learn,most players pick up quickly how to play pre-flop and the flop ok and the river has few decisions to make, which leaves us with good ole 4th street,the one part where a lot of us c#ck up ]

noble, you don"t do brief replies.  

Great stuff.

Haven"t seen you on here much lately, hope all is good with you.

[Marty719]

i"ll make a brief ish reply on how i"d play it and why based on the info you have given.

1. FLOP - call - i do not want to be seen/tagged as being weak tight and have the problem of more donk bets in the future. [has he seen you raise and fold to donk bets previously tp2p ?]
2. TURN - fold - if he fires again and no magical Queen arrives,if he checks then this is where i play it differently as to how others have suggested so far.If he checks then i will check also - why? - because if he does have a strong hand then he may be looking to check raise [us floating him may of occurred to him,incidentally if i were him i"d also have a check raise bluff in my repetoire of tricks as well ]

So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.

By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.

More or less this I think.

I"d raise less pre, flat this bet - pounce on any weakness on the turn.

It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc.

The floating isn"t necessarily to hit.  If he doesn"t bet the turn, then you can bet out and he"s going to struggle to play back unless he has a hand where he thinks he"s ahead.  That"s the beauty of position.

Regardless of turn, if we are checked to we are firing at it.

I will check the turn still with the point of floating [a delayed float] and i"d bet out if he checks the river but the sizing will have to be pot ish or maybe a slight over bet of the pot [just in case he thinks middle pair or TPWK is worth check calling] Also i met consider calling a reasonable bet on the river from him if he makes it [bluff catch a missed draw etc]

All player dependent/reads/how good they are etc but i hope at least this may of given you a few more ideas to think about. [The turn/4th street imo is the hardest to play/learn,most players pick up quickly how to play pre-flop and the flop ok and the river has few decisions to make, which leaves us with good ole 4th street,the one part where a lot of us c#ck up ]

I dnt think we can check the turn and bet pot on river if we have an ag image.  I think if it goes check/check on the turn then we have to check river behind and hope for sum AK showdown value, but think it looks pretty weak if we check turn in position and then fire pot on river.  I think by betting the turn we get to re-assess how comfortable he is with the situation and get an extra feel as to whether or not a river bet will work.  Im not a huge fan of checking back in position tho so it totally depends on the table image of op I guess.

Also, if opponent is a player capable of check shoving draws on the turn then I do think it is right to check behind!  I think that villain hero calls the river w/ Q10 where he may find it hard to call 2 shells.  If u have a tight trappy image tho then I do think ur way works v well.  Wud b interesting to hear how table perceived op??  Any history w/ villain??

[Mikeyboy9361]

Great to have you back Noble.....you have been missed  

[noble1]

2 checks are key marty,if he were thinking to check raise the turn the majority of players now lead the river..

Have a browse though 2+2 pocket5"s and see how many will lead out/donk bet a strong hand on the flop with this type of texture and then check turn+river..My point being that to check twice his range is heavily weighted to drawing hands as is checking the turn and then leading the river as now his range will consist of monsters/weak hands which are putting out a blocker bet or a missed draw bluff..
Also dont discount which cards come on 4th 5th street , does the turn pair the board or the 3rd suit arrives etc etc
when using a delayed float we use our judgement.IMO todays better informed player is well aware of float plays and the type of good flop texture to do it with and they adjust to it/you especially if we were online and they had all your stats up on HUD..Also the higher the buy in/skill level of your opponents also has a bearing as well of course..

tyty all is good   just been busy work wise and reading/discussing endless poker situations and trying to hone up my cash game..

btw the toffees RULE