donk betting

[noble1]

donk betting is a interesting line of play imo,when someone 3bets preflop which indicates that it maybe a high Pair or AK type hand most of the time lol then donk betting the flop over inflates the pot making a turn steal very expensive [this helps against certain player types or situations/board textures].Typically, donk betting looks a bit weaker than check-raising, so it"s better than c/r if you think villain"s range has a lot of medium hand strength hands that he would be inclined to pot-control.i tend to want to donk bet the top of my range for value and the bottom of my range as bluffs provided i can assume that i will have some fold equity on 4th or 5th street.
Not a play for low stakes but for medium stakes and above against a good player especially not a bad line to take is it??

anyone want to discuss donk betting?

[lukybugur]

Out of a willingness to learn, I"d like to talk about this.

I donk bet / would donk bet;

with AK / AQ on a raggedy-ass non-paint board

to put pressure on short stackers who"s range falls into the "I too have two overcards but shouldn"t / can"t really afford to float / call" (pretty much same as above)

on scary boards eg. when two flopped cards are suited and I think I can represent a willingness to race with a flush draw, or, on 678 / 789 / 89T boards when T9 / JT / JQ are entirely within my "calling a 3-bet" range

in multi-way pots when I have a hand like A6 and a JJ6 board or better still, with any pocket pair on a JJJ board. Betting out with three players to act behinds can easily look like a "I"m betting out "cos I hope to reel one of you three in". Chances I have a Jack / case J are slim in each case and only a J and overpairs can call. Take the chance IMO, moreso when deeper-stacked.

with a medium flush draw (eg. with 57h on a 9hTh2c board)

Overall, me thinx I have too many situations where I would consider "donking" chips. Come join me on BlueSq and take my chips.

i tend to want to donk bet the top of my range for value and the bottom of my range as bluffs provided i can assume that i will have some fold equity on 4th or 5th street.

Agree. More troublesome if you"re playing a tight, cautious, min-raising opponent - less fold equity obv? I"d think it"d be easier to do and you"ll have more room for varying your bet-sizes against a weak/scared or overbetting/shovemonkey opponent.

[AJDUK]

I donk bet / would donk bet;
with AK / AQ on a raggedy-ass non-paint board

Given a 3 bet pf scenario I think you would lose more than you win with this move. Do you really want to do this with AQ given you will be facing a big raise or push very often? No paint can easily mean high pair or AK. Stack and player dependent of course but of the other donk bet situations you describe this seems to me to be the least favourable.

I suppose a key question is how often does it work for you? What do you do when you get flat called?

Interesting topic - keen to see how it develops.  

[mal666]

Donk to induce

[noble1]

interesting thread [please look at all replies]

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=44396.0

image a key factor?

someone 3bets preflop which indicates that it maybe a high Pair or AK type hand most of the time lol then donk betting the flop over inflates the pot making a turn steal very expensive [this helps against certain player types or situations/board textures].

in the above scenario i have raised and called a 3bet from behind,if i had called a small pp and hit my set on a low uncoordinated flop against a good player is it good to balance the way i would play it,rather than take the more std approach of c/c lead turn or c/r flop say?  



edit - [been thinking about lukys post]

Out of a willingness to learn, I"d like to talk about this.

I donk bet / would donk bet;

with AK / AQ on a raggedy-ass non-paint board

to put pressure on short stackers who"s range falls into the "I too have two overcards but shouldn"t / can"t really afford to float / call" (pretty much same as above)
luky is this when you call a raise from in the blinds or limp in ep and call a raise? Are there any specific things/tendencies you have seen the player do that make you think you"ll get a fold?

on scary boards eg. when two flopped cards are suited and I think I can represent a willingness to race with a flush draw, or, on 678 / 789 / 89T boards when T9 / JT / JQ are entirely within my "calling a 3-bet" range

in multi-way pots when I have a hand like A6 and a JJ6 board or better still, with any pocket pair on a JJJ board. Betting out with three players to act behinds can easily look like a "I"m betting out "cos I hope to reel one of you three in". Chances I have a Jack / case J are slim in each case and only a J and overpairs can call. Take the chance IMO, moreso when deeper-stacked.
I"m not a fan of this one in a multi-way raised pot,i"m more inclined to c/r bluff if say i"m in the sb [4way pot]and utg cbets [if he has a high tendency to cbet most flops] 2 other callers fold then back to me i c/r flop or call flop lead/donk bet the turn [reverse float i guess]..The texture of the flop is important and how i think villain perceives it...
with a medium flush draw (eg. with 57h on a 9hTh2c board)

Overall, me thinx I have too many situations where I would consider "donking" chips. Come join me on BlueSq and take my chips.
lol but it is fun experimenting so long as we learn why they dont work from the unsuccessful attempts..

i tend to want to donk bet the top of my range for value and the bottom of my range as bluffs provided i can assume that i will have some fold equity on 4th or 5th street.

Agree. More troublesome if you"re playing a tight, cautious, min-raising opponent - less fold equity obv? I"d think it"d be easier to do and you"ll have more room for varying your bet-sizes against a weak/scared or overbetting/shovemonkey opponent.
the only thing i"d add here is if my read is that opponent is tight [but a pot control type] and we are fairly deep stacked and my own image is ok then 3betting the flop is not out of the question!!

also like mal666 suggests donk bet our monsters to induce our opponent to rr/over play a big over pair for example but do you balance your range mal?
A question i"d like to ask is does anyone donk bet say top pair to thin a field in a multi-way pot or is this bad?

[lukybugur]

PokerStars Game #33386367065: Tournament #199550281, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (600/1200) - 2009/09/28 17:26:40 WET [2009/09/28 12:26:40 ET]
Table "199550281 251" 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Rekop311 (12295 in chips)
Seat 2: lukybugur (53706 in chips)
Seat 3: luisGpoker (41885 in chips)
Seat 4: Echtwelstoer (23245 in chips)
Seat 5: Ntamosauskas (25624 in chips)
Seat 6: maine brice (16329 in chips)
Seat 7: Mecca-jay (34038 in chips)
Seat 8: maxm0n (49042 in chips)
Seat 9: ZzenT (24829 in chips)
Rekop311: posts the ante 125
lukybugur: posts the ante 125
luisGpoker: posts the ante 125
Echtwelstoer: posts the ante 125
Ntamosauskas: posts the ante 125
maine brice: posts the ante 125
Mecca-jay: posts the ante 125
maxm0n: posts the ante 125
ZzenT: posts the ante 125
Rekop311: posts small blind 600
lukybugur: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lukybugur [ ]
luisGpoker: folds
Echtwelstoer: folds
Ntamosauskas: folds
maine brice: folds
Mecca-jay: folds
maxm0n: raises 2400 to 3600
ZzenT: folds
Rekop311: folds
lukybugur: calls 2400
*** FLOP *** [ ]
lukybugur: DONK BETS 4800
maxm0n: folds
Uncalled bet (4800) returned to lukybugur
lukybugur collected 8925 from pot
lukybugur: doesn"t show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8925 | Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 1: Rekop311 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: lukybugur (big blind) collected (8925)
Seat 3: luisGpoker folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 4: Echtwelstoer folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 5: Ntamosauskas folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 6: maine brice folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 7: Mecca-jay folded before Flop (didn"t bet)
Seat 8: maxm0n folded on the Flop
Seat 9: ZzenT (button) folded before Flop (didn"t bet)

[noble1]

 i cried myself silly luky +ev 4800 to win 8925, plenty of chips to do it with,you chose the right stack to tangle with imo i hope u bled this weak nit dry  good use of fold equity...

[Swinebag]

Not sure this is the greatest from me

NL Texas Hold'em $22 USD Buy-in Trny: 47835179 Level: 3  Blinds(50/100) - Tuesday, October 06, 07:57:30 BST 2009
Table Regular (1764452) Table #2 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 9: Achiles12 ( 6,500 )
Seat 5: Nathan19854 ( 3,780 )
Seat 4: Seabiscuit92 ( 3,320 )
Seat 3: Swinebag22 ( 4,320 )
Seat 7: Ukong ( 3,010 )
Seat 6: calvinius2 ( 7,870 )
Seat 10: kasperand ( 2,745 )
Seat 1: macdub420 ( 11,315 )
Seat 2: michele313 ( 920 )
Seat 8: phoenix133 ( 5,195 )
Trny: 47835179 Level: 3
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Swinebag22 [   ]
Seabiscuit92 folds
Nathan19854 folds
calvinius2 folds
Ukong folds
phoenix133 folds
Achiles12 raises [200]
kasperand folds
macdub420 folds
michele313 folds
Swinebag22 calls [100] thought about reraising the min raise
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]   
Swinebag22 donk bets [300] with his gutshot
Achiles12 folds
Swinebag22 does not show cards.
Swinebag22 wins 750 chips

[Swinebag]

This is the donk betting we dream of. It rarely is a monster at this level


Table Regular (1764452) Table #2 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 9: Achiles12 ( 4,660 )
Seat 5: Nathan19854 ( 5,380 )
Seat 10: RULER78 ( 11,756 )
Seat 3: Swinebag22 ( 8,140 )
Seat 7: Ukong ( 8,755 )
Seat 1: balu4altijd ( 4,140 )
Seat 6: calvinius2 ( 7,270 )
Seat 2: michele313 ( 120 )
Seat 4: petester188 ( 3,590 )
Seat 8: phoenix133 ( 11,480 )
Trny: 47835179 Level: 4
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Swinebag22 [   ]
There will be a break in 1 minute(s)
calvinius2 folds
Ukong folds
phoenix133 folds
Achiles12 folds
RULER78 folds
balu4altijd folds
michele313 folds
Swinebag22 raises [500]
petester188 folds
Nathan19854 calls [300]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
Nathan19854 donk bets [200] LOL!!
Swinebag22 raises [800]
Nathan19854 folds
Swinebag22 does not show cards.
Swinebag22 wins 2,100 chips

[cincicrappykid]

ever thought of donk calling?

[Swinebag]

ever thought of donk calling?

You aren"t still upset with my calling your all in with A5 v QQ and sucking out (again)

I knew I was behind but was mathematically compelled to call...i think

[cincicrappykid]

lol just wondering if u wud bite  

[Swinebag]

[cincicrappykid]

lol

[noble1]

for those interested in exploiting tendencies of others - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87/high-stakes-mtt/wcoop-main-event-hand-599498/  more confusion/folds