Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???

[coprey]

I agree with all of Colin"s points. A rulebook for behaviour could not be specific enough to be useful. Also, I think a little more information on why bans have been given would be appropriate.

Having always been drawn at the opposite end of the casino, I have never witnessed Scouse close-up, other than his over-exuberant celebration of Liverpool scoring against Portsmouth (which obviously warranted a life-ban) so I cannot comment on him. However, I am glad that this thread has seen some reasonable points and hasn"t turned into a piling-in of Steve"s known mates drowning out other views.

The main reason I am posting is to disagree with the comments about swearing. This isn"t the 1950s. Objections to "bad" language are out of date and the concept of moderation in mixed company is dead. Swearing has an important role to play in poker and it would be pretty odd if words used every night on mainstream comedy and drama programmes were banned from poker rooms.

Also, excellent contribution by WarBwastard. Some good points raised there.

"Swearing has an important role to play in poker" - what role?

The odd swear word is hardly an issue to me - but if things become abusive - you do need to take some action- quiet word best (if it works).

L

Its not the swear words themselves but the emotion behind them that makes the difference. This is why I would be against a blanket rule on swearing.

[SirPercival]

he went on a bit so I"ve edited out.....  



We, as a poker community, just need to appreciate how diverse we are and that everyone who plays APAT events is different.  We have different expectations of the weekend, different poker styles, different motivations for being there, different personalities and somehow as players we need to ensure that everyone leaves wanting to play again and having enjoyed the experience.

That can"t be too difficult, can it ?

I agree Leigh it shouldn"t be difficult. Unfortunatly though, it often is.

As you rightly point out, everyone is different therefore understanding of what is acceptable, and what isn"t, is also different for each individual.

I am not proposing a "rule book", just a set of guidance on what consititutes unacceptable behavior and what actions may be taken. I like Steve"s termonology  - we need a "Code of Conduct".

Stuart
p.s. If this isn"t produced before the European championships I intend to sing Flower o" Scotland each time a Scottish player is all-in because I consider this to be acceptable  

[kinboshi]

Ste - you know I like you, I think you"re a great lad.  But you overstepped the mark at the APAT event at DTD, and if I"d been the TD or floor manager, I"d have thrown you out earlier and ironically, you probably wouldn"t have been given an APAT ban.  To criticise DTD is bit churlish imo, and I think their mistakes were less of an issue than your transgressions.

Have a drink and have a laugh by all means.  You know I love to have a drink as well.  But if drinking interferes with others" ability to enjoy the poker and the event, then I think it"s too much.

Poker clubs/casinos are private clubs in essence.  They don"t have to publish their rules, and can change them or add them at any time they want.  If they don"t want you as a member, then tough (unless it contravenes the law).  Surely the same goes for APAT?  If someone is warned, told and then told again that their behaviour is going against APAT ethos/rules/whatever, but you continue to disregard that - then why point the finger elsewhere?  Would any of the armed forces accept someone breaking the rules on a number of occasions without any punishment being dealt out?

I"d love to know the number of people who"ve played in APAT events since the first event at the Broadway in 2006 (anyone remember who won that one?) - but I think you can count on one hand the number of people who"ve been suspended or banned from APAT events or from the venues where the events have been held.  I think this shows the rules aren"t draconian or unnecessary, and that adding to the published rules to create a "code of conduct" isn"t required. 

Ste, take your punishment like a man and then come back next season, make another Day 2 (bless ya), and go on and win one the bloody things. 

As for swearing, I think the odd expletive in exasperation or frustration is hardly the end of the world.  A tirade of language aimed at someone at the table is very much out of order - and should be punished accordingly. 

Anyway, look forward to meeting up with again soon and the first beer"s on me

[Claw75]

I don"t know you Steve, and can only speak from my own experiences.

I briefly shared a table with you at Walsall and there was an incident where you were involved in a hand with another player. After the hand played out you quite vociferously made your opponent aware of how badly you thought he played it - "retardedly" iifc.  That incident made me feel really uncomfortable, and there was a strained atmosphere at the table for a little while afterwards.

As I said, I don"t know you, but that was my first impression of you. It became clear a little while later that you had meant the comments in jest, but that was not how they came over at the time, and it wasn"t something that was nice to witness at an APAT event.

FWIW, as a woman I have no problem with bad language per se, and I certainly wasn"t offended or upset in any way when you had your little shout at the TV later on in the day - in my experience it"s men who seem to be more concerned about language in "mixed company".  Had the language been directed at someone else in the tournament, well that"s a different kettle of fish.

I"m not quite sure what your motive is in asking for these opinions, and I hope you don"t take anything I"ve said as a personal criticism - it"s just time and place stuff really.

[daveyb147]

dont personally mind the odd swear word as long as it isnt directed aggressively at me lol,,,,wsop,,,i believe is one warning for swearing,,then a ten min table ban.

[Joker161]

Steve - I was on the table with you at DTD. On your immediate left. I was the bloke that folded JJ (durrr!). Although you were a bit pissed, I didn"t mind the banter. Certainly more fun that a totally quiet table. I got the feeling that the rest of the table wished I had called and knocked you out!

I can see why you"ve been banned - I think you might have upset quite a few people. Personally, I"ll miss you at Bolton. Take the medicine and I hope to see you next year.

[scouse3465]

i said i wasnt going to reply on this but just want to clarify a couple of things . the point of this thread was if the concenus was people would rather i wasnt at apat events i would stay away. And as for people not posting on here that do want me to stay away , i would hope they had the morale fibre to complain when i ask them too and not just at the casino. Please do seriously i wont take offence. I have seen , done and been told a lot worse trhan you can. And as for taking my medicine and taking it on the chin i always do even if i dont agree with it.
thanks for all comments all taken on board

[Robbiebox]

I briefly shared a table with you at Walsall and there was an incident where you were involved in a hand with another player. After the hand played out you quite vociferously made your opponent aware of how badly you thought he played it - "retardedly" iifc.  That incident made me feel really uncomfortable, and there was a strained atmosphere at the table for a little while afterwards.

As I said, I don"t know you, but that was my first impression of you. It became clear a little while later that you had meant the comments in jest, but that was not how they came over at the time,

I was that person and wrote this in my blog at the time.

A loud fella named Scouse was keeping everyone entertained and I clashed with him in two hands where I made good value calls on the river with pocket pairs and this got him a little excited and he started berating me for my play. Out of order stuff really, with a few insults and use of the words retard and idiot, I love that banter/wind-up stuff though and replied with a "not the idiot who bet with nothing" and "I wasn"t playing the cards, just the player", give him credit though he came back with "well played Phil" which I thought was a good line. However he didn"t know me at the time and I think several players would have taken offence at his comments. He did buy me and a couple of others a beer after he was knocked out and then watched the footy where he got a little excited and expressed himself FULLY! There were a number of players who swore loudly throughout the tourney including a lady so drunk she fell asleep at our table and had to be given a nudge every time it was her turn to act. A few other incidents happened and now there is a fully fledged thread on APAT forum regarding "beer and poker". I personally like to have characters at a poker table and beer often "creates" more character, although swearing out loudly never sits comfortably with me in a public place

Characters to me at poker make it exciting and as you say Steve it would be boring with a whole table who at the most utter one word comments. Loudness is just acceptable as quietness in my opinion, but loud peoples thoughts are obviously heard by everyone so it is important that these comments are not going to spoil anybody"s w/end.

As for swearing, it is poker and we are all 18+ and the actual swearing doesn"t offend me but it does set a tone that isn"t pleasant and I think it should be actively discouraged by all involved in APAT, both the power lords and us minions, the players. However a WSOP style auto ban would be pathetically Yankee, lets just stick to some common sense British Fair Play and values.

Didn"t make day 2 at DTD so can"t comment, but if you were a little out of order then following Walsall I think the APAT Lords were obliged to correctly impose a sanction/ban.

[mattblue]

are miss ya mate be drinking on my own then lol woop woop are win bolton 4 ya son keep right on till the of the road

[antthecat]

i find it hard to comment as i dont know you personally but i have a certain moment that happened at walsall i would like to show some reflection on. it was my second live apat event and the dragon (my girlfriend by the way) wanted to come as i convinced her that these are social events and the crowd is very pleasant. i only lasted two hours and then met up with the dragon. as i was telling her about my bad beat(she was not listening btw) the football was on and you were getting a bit excited in the moment of the game. to me this his bloke behaviour but the dragon seemed slightly scared to be in the enviroment at that time, the game then finished and everyone relaxed(including the dragon).

as we left that evening we were talking about the day and she said that she was not convinced on the social side of things and kept wondering why i found the day entertaining. that moment was her first impression on poker (even though she wont play) and she is sticking to it. i will admit your behaviour can seem intidimating and to some peoplethis moment(or others?) will stick in their mind and they possibly will not want to play anothe event which is a shame.

i do hope to see you again soon as poker is all about characters and you will be missed

[monkeyman]

Open letter to Scouse
---------------------
I wasn"t at DTD so I"m not going to comment on that, but we"ve shared a table before, both live and online, so I thought I"d add my comments to those already listed.
  Its fair to say I"m at the opposite end of the noise scale from you, but I don"t regard that as a problem. I"m naturally very quiet and prefer to say as little as possible at the table (unless of course someone calls me a fish when I will often reply with a few choice "compliments"), whilst in your own words, you will always be loud whether sober or drunk. What I"ve never really got my head around is exactly what motivates you when you are playing poker. Are you there to win and make a few quid, or is it purely a social thing to you? If what you want more than anything else is to have a few beers and a bit of a laugh, then you are in the wrong environment; there are plenty of bars in any town in the land that will accomodate you. If you are serious about getting the most out of your poker then you are a bloody idiot. Most APAT nationals will have a wide range of players. There are always one or two newbies who are out of their depth,large numbers of solid,competent players, some with a few decent wins to their name and a handful who are virtually professional. Without naming names, there are players I"m confident I"ll take chips off and some who I know could make life very difficult for me. For what its worth, I happen to think you are up there with any other APAT player I have come across and are capable of giving anyone a damned hard game. I just can"t work out what goes on inside your head. If you really want to make the most of your poker skills, accept your punishment without complaint, then when you come back, try playing without alcohol because only then will you get the most from your talents. I couldn"t really give a toss if you think I"m getting above myself here, but you"ve asked for opinions and this is mine.

[undisputed]

i said i wasnt going to reply on this but just want to clarify a couple of things . the point of this thread was if the concenus was people would rather i wasnt at apat events i would stay away. And as for people not posting on here that do want me to stay away , i would hope they had the morale fibre to complain when i ask them too and not just at the casino. Please do seriously i wont take offence. I have seen , done and been told a lot worse trhan you can. And as for taking my medicine and taking it on the chin i always do even if i dont agree with it.
thanks for all comments all taken on board

OK my turn, but i really can"t be arsed to write an essay like everyone else, so i"ll mkeep it short and sweet. .. .

Ban the *****.  .. he"s nothing but an abusive drunk.  

[rudders]

ok....... loads of issues raised here.

Firstly- i have played with you a number of times you have always been loud- not a problem for me- if it had ever got too nloud- ipod in i say. dont know the specifics of the reasons for the ban , but have too much respect for des, tighty etc to think they would not have given it for no reason or without giving it much consideration.

As far as coming back to future events - yes  and yeas again.  As a friend my advice is ...quieten down? - nah.... be more aware that some of what you say directly to people may be considered offensive by them. (I for one would not take kindly  to being called a retard by someone I dont know- as commented by another poster- wasnt there, so if that did occur tried to refrain). I personally feel that you have no wish to upset people its just that what would not upset you does upset others. You feel that people should tell you at the time -  not everyone is as assertive as you, and also standing up to the large(!) loud scouse bloke who you know is a member of her majestys armed forces (trained killer??) is not evryones first course of action. Just be aware that not everyone knows  you and that you are just joking, and a top bloke, and therefore may be a tad intimidated.

As far as I am concerned  the standards of behaviour at apat are far higher thatn in poker in general. Having said that with a steady influx of inexperienced live players some guidance as to ettiquette be be helpful. It might also be helpful to remind some more experienced players . IMHO poor ettiquette/manners leads to as much upset as anything else at the poker table.

here would be some of the things that may be worth considering (some of which are my pet hates, some of which I have seen cause ++ upset at recent APAT events)

swearing at or insulting other players not acceptable (unless it is big Al of course)
(I think that swearing at the table does happen and would be difficult to ban totally.)

Slow rolling- if you have the nuts at show down flip your hand quickly. if there is an allin before you and you are are last to act holding AA dont take 30 secs of ham acting before calling its not funny and the guy whos shoved with kk may lose his sense of humour

Dont comment on other peoples hands during hands during play if you are not involved in the hand ( If you want to comment afterwards I refer you to point one "why didnt you raise the turn- you played that hand like f****g muppett" is not always well received especially if they have just lost the hand)

Acting out of turn- it happens - but on the 5th occasion by the same person it gets a bit wearing, pay attention and turn your ipod off if you cant multitask.

Dont take 2 mins over every decision ( take your time on the big decisions by all means - accompanied  by soz guys just need a bit of time over this one also helps)

Dont fold out of turn (including if someone has anouced raise- your fold .. and others gives more info the raiser  wait for the raise or amount to be announced)

plenty of others just pretty sure have bored evryone stupid by now. we dont need anything formal- maybe jst an ettiquette thread which can be vetted by the Mods giving the offivial view on whats acceptable not just accepting my somewhat jaundiuced views.

NB most of thes should be policed by cardroom staff with sinbin penalties enforced, but sadly are not merely reinforcing poor behaviour

And Steve come back as soon as the ban is completed- you will be missed

[Eck]

No

[Eck]

swearing at or insulting other players not acceptable (unless it is big Al of course)
(I think that swearing at the table does happen and would be difficult to ban totally.)

oh and this