Author Topic: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???  (Read 14050 times)

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cincicrappykid

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cincicrappykid

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SirPercival

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2009, 10:21:16 AM »
I am going to sit on the fence, but with very good reason. I do not know if you have broken any rules that deserve a ban.

I for one would like to see a set of published rules which include guidance on what is and isn"t acceptable behaviour. I appreciate that not all eventualities can be covered but would relate it to a disciplinary process in the workplace where managers have to make decisions based on guidance outlined in disciplinary procedures, staff handbooks etc.

Before you start thinking I"ve gone mad I do speak from experience and have had to make difficult decisions ragarding discipline of staff. I am sure that any decision by APAT was not taken lightly and I am not questioning that decision. I am trying (probably poorly) to point out that we don"t know what is and isn"t allowed.

For example, I know organistions where staff are allowed to use the internet at work including social networking sites, auction sites, forums etc. I know other orgasnisations where the use of the internet is banned. In some organisations you can be fired for not wearing the correct uniform whilst in others you can wear whatever you wish. These things are usually set out in policys and communicated to staff so they know the rules. Break those rules and face the results.

We could even look at differences in laws of different countries. The age limits for drinking for example mean that it is against the law for someone to drink in one place but acceptable in another. Some countries find it perfectly acceptable for girls to be married and having children age 14 but in others this would be seen as outrageous.

So my challenge to the APAT team is to produce a set of rules for us to follow, and if we break them we know what to expect. If you want to delegate the task to a players committee then I would happily stand for election onto such a group. You may be of the view that this shouldn"t be needed and if so I envy your positive thinking but feel it a requirement to sustain the growth and success of what APAT has achieved.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 10:59:34 AM by SirPerceval »

Jon MW

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2009, 10:26:45 AM »

...
I for one would like to see a set of published rules which include guidance on what is and isn"t acceptable behaviour.
...


I think it"s a reasonable idea in theory, but in practice I think it would contain a lot of things which would need interpretation - to do with "respect" and not interfering with the game, and above all else "reasonableness" for example.

So I don"t think it should be a priority, after all, almost every member of APAT has managed to avoid getting banned without having to have a set of published rules to check.
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AMRN

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2009, 10:41:26 AM »


...
I for one would like to see a set of published rules which include guidance on what is and isn"t acceptable behaviour.
...


I think it"s a reasonable idea in theory, but in practice I think it would contain a lot of things which would need interpretation - to do with "respect" and not interfering with the game, and above all else "reasonableness" for example.

So I don"t think it should be a priority, after all, almost every member of APAT has managed to avoid getting banned without having to have a set of published rules to check.


I agree with Stuart - as punishment is being metered, I think that for the sake of transparency, we need to understand the Code of Conduct to which we are expected to adhere, and to then understand what the consequences may be for any subsequent breach.

Jon - to your point, I accept that "almost every member of APAT has managed to avoid getting banned without having to have a set of published rules to check", however there have been a number of bans imposed this season so far (Walsallx2, Edinburgh, DTD - are the ones I can recall), and each time there has been a significant debating thread started as to the legitimacy of the behaviour and the consequent actions. I think that having a clear guide as to the expected conduct of members would overcome any doubt around behaviour issues and punishments.

To Steve"s original post, I agree with most on this thread. I don"t like to hear explicit language in mixed company, and do appreciate being able to hear myself think at times..... HOWEVER, I really do have no problem with you at the table (or anywhere else) - in fact I think you are a genuine nice guy!  I think you"re opinions of DTD are tainted unfairly - I believe it to be the best card room in UK, and possibly even further afield than that.  Not sure what you"re trying to achieve with this thread - you won"t get a petition for your return, and you won"t get balanced responses... only your supporters or the fence sitters will respond - those who dislike you will not respond.

The ban is imposed. See it out, and I hope to meet you again next season. Good luck.

coprey

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2009, 10:46:16 AM »
I do not think a rulebook is the way to go for poker tournaments. What would the rule book say about drinking? never mind volume levels, standing up, time wasting, table etiquette. I think such a system would be detrimental to the game and rules could be applied too strictly and potentially spoil the fun element of APAT tounaments.

It would be helpful for APAT members to understand what behaviour is receiving a ban. What was the crime? In the past this has been kept reasonably quiet for the privacy of the individual involved. I would like to see more openness, in terms of fairness and consistency, I dont need to know the detail of infringements, just perhaps a general statement such as ban received for insulting players at table or excessive drunkiness. Perhaps an APAT committee consisting of members should have a voice in these matters.

I think a ban should be a last resort, and I would hope that any APAT member would have received several warnings before any ban is imposed. I have witnessed unpleasant behaviour several times at APAT events, and the players involved have gotten away with it, bcause no fuss was made by other players or casino staff. There is certainly the potential for certain players to be higher profile than others, and therefore their behaviour is more noticable, and easier for others to criticise.

I remember earlier APAT events where Tikay made an announcement before each tournament reminding everyone about the APAT ethos and wishing everyone good luck. I thought this was good idea and set the scene for the tournament, I think it should be re-introduced for future APAT events. ps im not volunteering lol  :)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 11:18:17 AM by coprey »

roddiablo

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2009, 11:19:39 AM »
If i may add some ramblings of a newbie to Apat..

Last year i played a GUKPT sat for the Newcastle stage and whilst playing began chatting to 2 guys "Scouse3645" and "GiMac" who"s wit and enthusiasim for the game was something i had rarely encountered before online, honestly at one point i offered to take scouse for a drinking tour of Newcastle  ::).

I left the table merry and pleased that i had met poker playing gents who shared the same attitude as myself towards having fun and banter regardless of the poker outcome, before that point i had the general feeling that poker was stuffy and devoid of life alas speaking to scouse provided me with the incentive to try out other poker mediums such as pub poker, casino poker and ultimately APAT with high hopes of meeting other players who were like minded.

Now i am certainly not saying that scouse is any kind of role model to potential new members but as a guy who recognises that poker is a game to have fun being part of and an excellent way of meeting new people, i tip my hat to you sir...
I would most certainly not be part of APAT if it wasn"t for him and his craic and am disappointed that i won"t be able to shake his hand at Bolton.

Although i sit on the fence with regards to his punishment for his misdemeanours.  :)

Disclaimer: this is written after a 12 hour nightshift  :-\

Honeybadg

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2009, 12:16:10 PM »
Just to echo - transparency would be good.

I was left with the feeling that the Edinburgh stuff had been washed under the carpet.

Announcement at the start of events obviously good.

Prefer if people were given time off the table as a "penalty" at the time - rather than after the events bans.

In terms of pro poker - there are some "hell raisers" - but rare to see drunk people playing on TV.

I don"t think (general case) that being drunk helps in playing poker - but as long as the game flows and people aren"t abusive - fair enough (they are likely giving an edge to their opponents).

Not mad for a committee - but guidance would be good.

Louis

MintTrav

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2009, 12:24:11 PM »
I agree with all of Colin"s points. A rulebook for behaviour could not be specific enough to be useful. Also, I think a little more information on why bans have been given would be appropriate.

Having always been drawn at the opposite end of the casino, I have never witnessed Scouse close-up, other than his over-exuberant celebration of Liverpool scoring against Portsmouth (which obviously warranted a life-ban) so I cannot comment on him. However, I am glad that this thread has seen some reasonable points and hasn"t turned into a piling-in of Steve"s known mates drowning out other views.

The main reason I am posting is to disagree with the comments about swearing. This isn"t the 1950s. Objections to "bad" language are out of date and the concept of moderation in mixed company is dead. Swearing has an important role to play in poker and it would be pretty odd if words used every night on mainstream comedy and drama programmes were banned from poker rooms.

Also, excellent contribution by WarBwastard. Some good points raised there.
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Cyntaf

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2009, 12:34:27 PM »
I know only third hand of any bans and the reasons why they were handed out. So I won"t make any comments on the people who have received them or why. I will comment on common sense, which Apat seams to be full of. The team have handled as far as i know, all the incidents excellently and how they see fit. They have also tried to keep these low key, to which I agree. I don"t think a rule book would be a good thing, as mentioned it is open to interperatation. I forsee this could lead to people requesting bans to  Apat for players they feel agrieved by??? By peoples twist on the rules, you could hyperthetically end up with a 2/3 of field ban on the next event. Yes this is taking it to the extreme, but do we really want to go down that road? Apat give up plenty of their time so that we can have a good time, they really do not need to be having meetings upon meeting/emails and phone calls re: disgruntled players. Therefore taking away the the time better spent doing exactly what they do for us all already.
All players should set their own standards, we are not angels and sure we will all slip from time to time. Your standards may not meet mine and vice versa, but i will make allowances as we are all different beings. So back to Steve, obviously things have happened, you have asked, and you are going to have to make some changes and allowances for other players at future events. I want to see you there and so do others as above etc, so use your training and adjust to the surroundings.

I would hope this is the last thread on this site with regards to discipline and bans. We can all live in hope. :)
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Chipaccrual

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2009, 12:40:26 PM »
Before I offer my views I would like to stress that these are my opinions on the topic.  My position within APAT doesn"t include any of these disciplinary issues, therefore I would hope I can give a balanced view on the subject.

I am also not going to comment on Steve"s personal situation as I do not think there is anything to be gained from this, other than to say that it is regrettably that APAT ever has to exclude individuals from their tournaments and this decision will not have been taken lightly.


As far as rules and regulations go and the disciplinary procedures, I think it is a real shame that this has become a problem this season.

However, player behaviour is a problem that nearly every poker tour has to deal with at some point and APAT is no different.  When it comes down to it this is a matter of respect and unfortunately this seems to be a greater issue when alcohol is involvement, not always, but I don"t think it"s a coincidence.

When I say respect, I refer to a level of respect that should be shown to any other human being, in whatever circumstances.  This covers a whole host of situations, but all of which are really common sense and shouldn"t need to be written in black and white.

In terms of a poker environment, each venue has a level of unacceptable behaviour that will result in action being taken by the staff or tournament director.  When we turn up to play an APAT event at a venue, we do represent APAT as a whole whether you want to or not and the actions of a few can leave the venue with a negative viewpoint of everyone.

I don"t want this to happen and I believe it is the responsibility of every player to address these issues at the time and not allow them to escalate to a point where APAT needs to take disciplinary action.

There have been arguments made that table talk and aggression is part of players "game" and I am not disputing that at all having railed many APAT tournaments, but if all players considered how their actions impact on other players enjoyment of the games, then perhaps a sensible balance can be found.

An ideal scenario is that bad beats and cards aside, I want everyone to leave an APAT weekend feeling that they had a good time, both socially and pokerwise.  Maybe that is asking too much due to the wide ranging characters that play, but it is because of the diversity of player that makes APAT what it is.

In every situation that has arisen this season, each individual was spoken to discreetly and politely about their behaviour by either the venue staff or one of the APAT team as soon as they were made aware of it.  Nobody wants to see players excluded from tournaments or receiving table bans whilst they are still playing in a tournament and to the best of my knowledge, APAT have ensured players see out their tournament.

However, in my opinion, those players that do not take on board the polite requests of venue staff and the APAT team only have themselves to blame and action has to be taken.

I would stress that I have seen both sides of this during the season, as a number of players when asked to "tone it down" a bit, did so without any bother whatsoever and without any impact on anyone"s enjoyment of the weekend, including their own.

We, as a poker community, just need to appreciate how diverse we are and that everyone who plays APAT events is different.  We have different expectations of the weekend, different poker styles, different motivations for being there, different personalities and somehow as players we need to ensure that everyone leaves wanting to play again and having enjoyed the experience.

That can"t be too difficult, can it ?

MintTrav

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2009, 13:00:20 PM »
Could you expand on that a bit, Leigh?
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Mikeyboy9361

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2009, 13:27:33 PM »
Well said Leigh, no it shouldn"t be too difficult.
I feel I must respond to MintTrav re the language issue. Okay we are in the 21st century and the proliferation of profanity in both everyday life and the media has become common place, it doesn"t though, in many peoples minds make it acceptable. I have played team sports all my life, and have heard and used "bad" language many many times, be it on the field of play in frustration, or in dressing room banter, but would never dream of using that language in everyday life, either at work, or at play, and certainly not in mixed company.
So sorry mate, I disagree with you on that.
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cincicrappykid

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2009, 13:37:22 PM »
He who is without sin .. cast the first stone
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Honeybadg

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Re: Scouse and APAT live events do they mix???
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2009, 15:01:57 PM »

I agree with all of Colin"s points. A rulebook for behaviour could not be specific enough to be useful. Also, I think a little more information on why bans have been given would be appropriate.

Having always been drawn at the opposite end of the casino, I have never witnessed Scouse close-up, other than his over-exuberant celebration of Liverpool scoring against Portsmouth (which obviously warranted a life-ban) so I cannot comment on him. However, I am glad that this thread has seen some reasonable points and hasn"t turned into a piling-in of Steve"s known mates drowning out other views.

The main reason I am posting is to disagree with the comments about swearing. This isn"t the 1950s. Objections to "bad" language are out of date and the concept of moderation in mixed company is dead. Swearing has an important role to play in poker and it would be pretty odd if words used every night on mainstream comedy and drama programmes were banned from poker rooms.

Also, excellent contribution by WarBwastard. Some good points raised there.


"Swearing has an important role to play in poker" - what role?

The odd swear word is hardly an issue to me - but if things become abusive - you do need to take some action- quiet word best (if it works).

L