IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome

[Marty719]

I know I misplayed it, but sunhow it seemed like the right line in my head at the time. Just to clarify - this hand didnt actually bust me - but majorly crippled me.

67 players left, pay jump at 64 (not massive but def changes the dynamic of hands at this point). I have just been moved to a new table and only have played w/ 2 of the players on it, neither of which were involved w/ this hand. I have 171k, villain has 240ish. Blinds r 5000/10000/1000. Have no prior info on villain at this point but he has a lot of ante chips which leads me to believe he has been playing a fairly agro style.

I bring it in from the c/o for 25k w/ AsQh and villain flats from the BB so 64k in the middle already at this point. Flop comes down KK2 rainbow. Villain checks, I hesitate and check back. This is not the line I would have taken w/ a king but villain has 0 info on me and the standard of play has been pretty grim in this tourney so Im assuming its standard. Turn is putting 2 of board and villain leads 35k. At this stage I thought his range inc a lot of medium pairs, f/d"s and some air, as well of course as some Kx hands. I float the turn to re-evaluate. River brings the Jx and villain insta-checks. Here"s where I think I made a mistake as I think I can check back here a good majority of the time and have a good deal of showdown value, but I wanted to win the pot against the medium pair hands he has, and keeping up my trappy K line, I bet 60k on the river. Villain thinks for a while and re-shoves. FML - I muck.

[Mikeyboy9361]

PF raise is standard, and you now have position. I don"t like the check on the flop, here I would have continued with 35/40k, and you would then have defined your hand, and also be able to evaluate the villains holding. After checking, villain is sensing weakness, hence his lead, again I am coming over the top or baling out at this point.
Your bet on the river after the insta check, I can see your reasoning, but what are you beating? Check behind here and gain some info for later, as it is you have to give up the hand and haven"t learned a great deal. For what its worth I think he hit a J, with a holding of 10 J or Q J.
Pretty good run though Marty, well played  

[deanp27]

just check back river.

[AMRN]

Problem is that with an M of around 7 you are struggling to raise/fold here. Obv the preflop raise is standard. If you had c-bet the flop, it costs you 35k - you spent that 35k on the turn anyway, but found out far less information for your money.  I can see where you"re going with your bet on the river, but it"s such huge proportion of your stack - you effectively put your tourney on the line with a bluff... I hate to be in that spot (been there loads though).

With 17 big blinds, an M of 7, late position, and no knowledge of rest of table...... there might even be an argument for raising bigger preflop and stating your intention to commit to the hand (perhaps even just a blatant shove is in order).

As played, I think I probably check behind on the river and see his cards - then look for spots to shove your remaining short(ish) stack.

[Swinebag]

I"m shoving this preflop for value. (M of 7, decent hand in LP)

you are just not deepstacked enough to be smallballing it.

With a 2.5x raise and cbet you are pretty much committed here. so only take your line if you intend to get them in at some point.

[WYoung83]

Deffo should of shoved pre flop....with antes out there you cannot possibly raise 2.5 x BB. Just does not work,  
the Big blind was getting over 3-1 and even with an average hand, he may not fold. So the only way to win the pot is to shove, you eliminate any mistakes on later streets.

Some people may say it is dangerous shoving because he is only goning to call if he has a better hand. But although it may be true, you arnt looking for a call anyway and from the sounds of it (like in the APAT toruneys, close to the bubble) just not enough chips in play to get cute post flop, annoying i know, but shoving is the optimal play.

[Honeybadg]

I am all in pre flop ... may well get called by ropey AJ/AT type hands ... if you run into AK,QQ,KK,AA ... just a cooler.

Once you are in the hand ... maybe bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop to induce a fold?? ... but there is almost no good play unless you hit.

L

[JamieCarra]

Don"t agree with shoving pre,  everybody is generally playing so tight this deep in tourneys that you can risk far less for the same effect.

Pre is standard but I would be cbetting the flop for ~29k(Difficult to say what to do if he check shoves as you"ve only just moved to the table).

As played I would then make a small raise on the turn, to say 80k.

Once you flat the turn you have definitely got to check back on the river.  You have still got a load of showdown value but I think you"re getting called by most pairs at this point.

[Marty719]

Just to clarify - I am never open-shoving 17x pre at this stage of this tournament.  Have more thoughts on the hand as well but Il w8 a while for them!

[deanp27]

preflop is fine, don"t open shove with 17xbb imo - 12 maybe the limit for me here.

this is a bad board to c-bet imo as pocket pairs and Kx peel so you don"t get rid of many worse hands and only get called by better. So that is fine.

you call turn as you feel like you have SD value then decide to turn your hand into a bluff, which is why i just check river.

[Mikeyboy9361]

Just to clarify - I am never open-shoving 17x pre at this stage of this tournament.  Have more thoughts on the hand as well but Il w8 a while for them!

Me neither!

[Marty719]

preflop is fine, don"t open shove with 17xbb imo - 12 maybe the limit for me here.

this is a bad board to c-bet imo as pocket pairs and Kx peel so you don"t get rid of many worse hands and only get called by better. So that is fine.

you call turn as you feel like you have SD value then decide to turn your hand into a bluff, which is why i just check river.

This is pretty much how I shuda played it - bet on the river was a major mind-fart!  Just had it in my mind tht I had played the hand like I cud possibly have a K and felt oblidged to keep telling tht story on the river.  Been kickin myself a lot for it.....literally!  Getting lots of diff opinions for what to do accross various forums.  I think I NEED to do one of 3 things for this hand to not b as bad!!

1-Bet 30k on flop

2-Raise the turn to 80k

3-Check back the river

I c/bet this flop about 70%+ of the time under normal circumstances, but it was the new table and all the villains ante chips that threw me.  Didnt want to get raised and have a mammoth decision on the flop.

[deanp27]

yeah, you say "i float the turn to re-evaluate" which sort of indicates you didn"t really have a plan but just "let"s see what happens" sort of thing.

its tough playing in these spots with 17bb and such a turbo structure but i think if you bet flop you should not be folding, betting "for info" and folding with that stack and with AQ would be a mistake imo. Checking flop is best.

[Marty719]

yeah, you say "i float the turn to re-evaluate" which sort of indicates you didn"t really have a plan but just "let"s see what happens" sort of thing.

its tough playing in these spots with 17bb and such a turbo structure but i think if you bet flop you should not be folding, betting "for info" and folding with that stack and with AQ would be a mistake imo. Checking flop is best.

I prob worded that wrong - wen I floated the turn - I had intended to bet the river at the time.  Its just in hindsight that I realise I shuda flatted to just slow him down!  Have to say - structure was perfect for IPO this yr - on day 1 I was rarely below 50x!  2nd day had bigger antes but still a fir structure - I was more than happy w/ it - cnt really blame the structure for this hand.  

[Swinebag]

I"m happy to shove up to 20BBs in certain situations, but given the description of the tourney that says you can get away with raising less then I can see the argument for raising less and playing a flop. This means you can steal much lighter without risking your stack.

However, If I enter the pot with AQ, with a smaller raise with my stack then I"m not folding the hand and am looking to get them in as soon as possible on the flop or turn if possible