IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome

[WYoung83]

Most People are saying that shoving pre flop is bad in this situation, because you have 17 BBs. But what about the Small blind and the Antes also. Do these not figure in Tourney strategy??? It is all about the cost of surviving an orbit  vs trying to go really deep, and with enough chips to sort of gain some Momentum.

A standard raise when there is Antes, is to not give the BB Value by calling. (especially with a good, but not monster like AQo) He is getting about 3.5-1 and  he should be calling with a wide range, even out of Pos. So by raising bigger you are commiting youself to the hand anyway. So shoving is a play that many experianced tourney players would do in this spot, i know it may seem a bit crapshooty and that you are taking away all the post flop skill by shoving, but the trouble with hands like AQ is that you miss the flop 2/3 times and you raised so small pre flop that his range is way to wide to be able to figure out what he has. he probably had trash hand to begin with and i think you priced him in anyway.

But if you really hate shoving pre, then just stick it in on the flop, whatever comes down.

[AMRN]

After more thought on this since my original response, I have to agree with Will"s comments. To raise enough to prevent the BB from having the odds to call, you will commit yourself - so may as well get them in first if you"re going to play the hand at all.

You don"t really want to be playing a flop with AQ at this time - ship them in and take the blinds and antes here.  I don"t think 17xBB  is too big to be open-shoving. If you raise 2.5xBB, then c-bet another 3xBB before having to fold, you"ve seriously degraded your fold equity.

Of course, if everyone folds, then the 2.5xBB raise is masterful.... problem is that without knowing the table, you may well get a caller, and then be in a sticky spot if you miss the flop.

Shipppp

[Marty719]

Im am surprised at so many ppl wanting to op-shove pre.  I know the blinds and ante"s r big and worthwhile, but I still dnt really like it.  At this stage, ppl were playing pretty tight and I dount I would have got a call from nething I was beating.  Also, it sort of means we have to ship AA/KK pre to keep the disguise (if ppl r paying attention) and thts clearly just awful and losing mega-value!

At what stack-size do the ppl who shove make it a standard raise?  

[deanp27]

i am probably open shipping 10-12bbs dependant upon hand - 17 bigs is too much, esp in a live game.

[Marty719]

i am probably open shipping 10-12bbs dependant upon hand - 17 bigs is too much, esp in a live game.

Yea - I think I open-ship under 12x prob

[AMRN]

so.... say you open raise from your late position with AQo for 2.5xBB and get re-raised to 8.5xBB.  What"s your line?

There"s no way you can flat call as you are totally pot committed.

Do you reraise all in - but if you do, you have to kow that he cannot fold as your stack size means he is pot committed to make the call.

So your options are to reraise all in or fold....

If you fold, you have turned AQ into a bluff, and could well be folding the best hand.
If you reraise shove, you are guaranteed a showdown and are at risk.

imo, AQo is not a hand I want to be either folding with an M of 7, but neither is it a hand I particularly want to be getting in to a showdown with for my tourney life at this stage.

By open shoving in this spot, those behind you have no opportunity to bluff you off the hand preflop, and if called to a showdown... well, you may well have ended up there anyway if you played it slower.... but by open shoving there is a huge chance here that you will take down the pot uncontested and add 24k to your stack - a 14% increase.

This is a horrible spot where your stack isn"t quite short enough for realistic shoving, but too short to play poker. I don"t think there is a right or wrong answer.

[Marty719]

If sum1 3-bet shoves w/ my stack size - Im quite happy to 4-bet shove and get it it pre.  I actually have no problem w/ p/f in this hand.  25k was the standard raise at this stage and ppl were really playin tight - esp w/ the money jump momentarilly!  Even if I c/bet the flop and get called and shut it down....I still have 11x.  Im open-shoving from this stage - but I dnt think w/ 17x.  I think c/betting the flop may actually b the best approach w/ my stack size!

[deanp27]

AQ is a monster at this stage so raising small is to induce weaker hands to 3bet/jam against you. Raise/folding AQ with 17bb and antes is not on my agenda

[noble1]

all various lines u can take have been mentioned , fwiw i prefer to shove pre 20bb or less when the blinds and antes are a significant plus to our stack..i"m not a fan of the original line that u took as imo it is a more high variance move compared to shoving pre [villain has indicated by the turn bet he has something and rather than the call turn block bet river line u took,then maybe shoving turn would provide more FE [thus a more profitable line long term] as played u have enough behind to fold it on the river and if check/check ace high maybe good :)and u still have a good stealing stack.

look into the maths marty for shove pre,even if villain calls top 30% hands [vv doubtful]and i cant be arsed to do the maths right now sry but i think you"ll find that shoving is very +ev..
there is a thread somewhere when a apat member was playing in a ept event with a pro who kept shoving on his blind where the maths behind it is explained,needless to say the apat member [sry i cannot remember the dudes name] kept folding......

I actually have no problem w/ p/f in this hand.  25k was the standard raise at this stage and ppl were really playin tight - esp w/ the money jump momentarilly!  Even if I c/bet the flop and get called and shut it down....I still have 11x.

on the flip side if a 17bb stack with AQ[or ATC for that matter] will get more FE  and if it does get called by whatever and u double up would not a 35bb+ stack be more beneficial in the late stages than a 11bb stack with less FE and by the sounds of it 2 bigger stacks on your left? rather than looking at this hand in isolation,look how it will affect future plays [the ole poker is a series of hands connected and people should stop looking at plays in a singular 1 situation way]
i just think that u should not dismiss the idea of shoving the 20bb ish stack size but look at times when u can implement it into your poker repertoire..


thinking about shoving,can u guys and girls remember this..i luvvv it ..
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[youtube=425,350][/youtube]

[WYoung83]

Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about.
I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.

[deanp27]

Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about.
I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.

whoa, just because someone agrees with you doesn"t mean it is the only valid point of view. Saying that someone with an alternative viewpoint doesn"t know what they are talking about is a bit arrogant, no?

shoving pre isn"t bad but just because something isn"t bad doesn"t mean it is necessarily the best way to play it. Shoving is unexploitable and majority of the time gets you the blinds and antes in the middle. However i prefer to raise hands as strong as this in the hope that someone tries to resteal with a weaker hand.

i mean what does "giving the BB odds to call" actually mean? Does that mean you will call any 3x raise or whatever out of the blinds with almost any 2 just because you have odds to call?

[bigredders]

Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about.
I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.

whoa, just because someone agrees with you doesn"t mean it is the only valid point of view. Saying that someone with an alternative viewpoint doesn"t know what they are talking about is a bit arrogant, no?

shoving pre isn"t bad but just because something isn"t bad doesn"t mean it is necessarily the best way to play it. Shoving is unexploitable and majority of the time gets you the blinds and antes in the middle. However i prefer to raise hands as strong as this in the hope that someone tries to resteal with a weaker hand.

i mean what does "giving the BB odds to call" actually mean? Does that mean you will call any 3x raise or whatever out of the blinds with almost any 2 just because you have odds to call?

completely agree, although i dont mind shoving in this spot by just raising you can get weaker hands to shove as they think your on a steal, by shoving your getting rid of hands like ace rag kq-kj etc.

who cares if the bb calls... a big hand needs to be hit to call a shove on the flop

[Marty719]

Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about.
I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.

whoa, just because someone agrees with you doesn"t mean it is the only valid point of view. Saying that someone with an alternative viewpoint doesn"t know what they are talking about is a bit arrogant, no?

shoving pre isn"t bad but just because something isn"t bad doesn"t mean it is necessarily the best way to play it. Shoving is unexploitable and majority of the time gets you the blinds and antes in the middle. However i prefer to raise hands as strong as this in the hope that someone tries to resteal with a weaker hand.

i mean what does "giving the BB odds to call" actually mean? Does that mean you will call any 3x raise or whatever out of the blinds with almost any 2 just because you have odds to call?

I really agree with all of this.  First things first...there is no set right/wrong way to play every situation and I think its pretty arrogant to think that way.  There r more expoitable ways for sure, but evry option has advantages and disadvantages.

Im still not shoving 17x pre, as dean says I want to make is 25k and have sum1 in the BB spaz-shove w/ A9.  However, if I open shove, Im pretty sure they r not gng to call here.  Im more than happy to get it in pre in this spot if sum1 3-bets...I just want to give them that option!

Also...for balance sakes...r we open-shoving all our hands in this spot?  Surely we r losing sum value from our premium hands?  I think it is a case of being unexpoitable and picking up the valuable blinds and antes vs attempting to get max value from weaker hands at a greater risk.  In this spot Im trying to extract max value to accumulate a good stack and give myself a good chance at a deep run.  

[Marty719]

Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about.
I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.

p.s. how much do u make it to outprice the bb if u have 25x.  R u making it 4x pre w/ ur entire range?

Also, fwiw - the sentence in bold is fairly awful (I originally had a diff word in here but changed it to keep the friendly APAT environment ).

[noble1]

all the above yep yep to all the above,raising pre is ok as long as we have a plan post flop,the problem in this situation is we have a lack of reads on the sb and bb..imo it doesnt really matter which option u take be it shoving,limping or raising pre,although if it is turning into a discussion of how much we should raise then if any1 suggests anymore than 3x then i"ll disagree with them
with a 17bb stack if i raised and we are 3bet then yes it should be a automatic all the chips in pre scenario,i"d do that with a stack size upto around 24bb,a stack size above this then i"ll still leave an option of folding to a 3bet..
Marty/dean what i will add to the discussion though is that shoving may induce villain to call with weaker hands as well because the shove looks weaker than a raise,,especially in cases/situations if we were to know that villain was stack size aware and knew that marty was..The only line i disagree with is the one marty actually played [sry marty ]

limping - i only suggest this if we were to know that sb or bb were agg monkeys and at our stack size we can limp shove to a raise and still have 2ways of winning the pot..