Views on how I played 2 hands with the same guy

[shozboy1]

1st hand...No history with the guy. 1st hand I"ve played with him. I"ve check folded several hands after calling preflop (set mining) so I guess I"ve been projecting a weak image overall. No SB-BB dynamic at all with the guy. This is only my 2nd raise off the button - 1st one taken down against the BB with a cbet. Hs stats over 60ish hands is 19/15

PokerStars Game #38216719770:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2010/01/15 23:02:47 WET [2010/01/15 18:02:47 ET]
Table "Fabiola VI" 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: jlewis10748 ($55.75 in chips)
Seat 2: ManyHorses ($78.80 in chips)
Seat 3: Tidder ($43.50 in chips)
Seat 4: shozboy ($45.90 in chips)
Seat 5: flori_wwf ($56.95 in chips)
Seat 6: Im EazyMony ($48.15 in chips)
Seat 7: CBulwa ($55 in chips)
Seat 8: the_luggster ($50.75 in chips)
Seat 9: Oceanlab127 ($77.15 in chips)
flori_wwf: posts small blind $0.25
Im EazyMony: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [Th Ts]
CBulwa: folds
the_luggster: folds
Oceanlab127: folds
jlewis10748: folds
ManyHorses: folds
Tidder: folds
shozboy: raises $0.70 to $1.20
flori_wwf: raises $3.30 to $4.50
Im EazyMony: folds
shozboy: calls $3.30
*** FLOP *** [ ]
flori_wwf: bets $5.75
shozboy: folds
Uncalled bet ($5.75) returned to flori_wwf
flori_wwf collected $9.05 from pot
flori_wwf: doesn"t show hand
*** SUMMARY ***


PokerStars Game #38217095548:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2010/01/15 23:09:47 WET [2010/01/15 18:09:47 ET]
Table "Fabiola VI" 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: Salvinho2301 ($49 in chips)
Seat 3: Tidder ($41.50 in chips)
Seat 4: shozboy ($41.85 in chips)
Seat 5: flori_wwf ($61.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Im EazyMony ($48.10 in chips)
Seat 7: CBulwa ($56.80 in chips)
Seat 8: the_luggster ($50 in chips)
Seat 9: Oceanlab127 ($77.15 in chips)
Im EazyMony: posts small blind $0.25
CBulwa: posts big blind $0.50
natisfinest: is sitting out
natisfinest leaves the table
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [ ]
TillerMaN joins the table at seat #1
the_luggster: folds
Oceanlab127: folds
Salvinho2301: folds
Tidder: folds
shozboy: raises $0.70 to $1.20
flori_wwf: raises $2.30 to $3.50
Im EazyMony: folds
CBulwa: folds
shozboy: calls $2.30
*** FLOP *** [ ]
shozboy: checks
flori_wwf: bets $4.25
shozboy: calls $4.25
*** TURN *** [ ] []
shozboy: checks
flori_wwf: checks
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
shozboy: checks
flori_wwf: bets $8.75
shozboy: calls $8.75
*** SHOW DOWN ***
flori_wwf: shows [ ] (high card Ace)
shozboy: shows [ ] (a pair of Queens)
shozboy collected $32.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***

[noble1]

1st one i"d call flop and turn and check river , fold to a 3barrel
2nd hand - i like the check but not the call, i"d prefer to check raise here to an agg player with position who has 3bet pre,
i say check raise as you can balance out your range against him in future 3bet situations and really give him a tough time.

[LongshanksED]

 hand 1 I"d call down to the river. Some scare cards on the turn or river might bother me but value may be too good. He could end up checking it down.   It may lose pot control though.

Hand 2 check raise on the flop

[shozboy1]

Cool. Obviously hand 2 gave me a tonne of info and I realised he was spew 3betting me with A7. Given that I should"ve played hand one, in hindsight, not so nittily. I guess I was wondering, particularly with hand one, whether I should"ve folded preflop or 4bet? I nearly folded, as it was the first time he"d 3bet anyone. Obviously the 2nd time he did it pretty much in an identical spot - to me again, 7 mins later, I couldn"t just go away. Obviously flopping top pair in the 2nd hand helped.
Noble, what do you mean by "balance out your range" - could you explain this. cheers

[Marty719]

Delete the results wen ur posting h/h"s - it really affects the responses!

What was the guys 3-bet %? That really affects a LOT of ur decisions like this, although ur sample size is quite small.  I think I 4-bet pre in hand 1 a good % of the time, but dnt mind flatting and playing one in position.  Def gna peel one on tht flop tho and see what he does on the turn.

Hand 2, again I prob 4-bet a fair %, esp wen oop!!  I also think u shud c/r the flop, or turn (obv he checked back the turn), to get more value.

[noble1]

what do you mean by "balance out your range"

What i mean is now that this player and the rest of the table if they had seen you call a 3bet with AQ oop and check raise TPTK on a 2 suit board the next time you get 3bet and this time you have AA , u can call [like AQ] and check raise a over pair [on a 2suit flop] .. If u were to showdown with a over pair on a 2suit flop if in another 3bet situation and you are oop
and u call with suited connecters and flop a FD then your check raise has a lot more FE plus can buy a free card on the turn [think about that one as i"m struggling to put it into writing ] This sort of check raise strategy works well when u have agg 3bettors on your left in position and u get way more value out of your hands.
It doesnt matter which sequence they see 1st , it could be check raising a FD for instance but all that means is that your over pairs will get action [and be paid off] in future 2suit flop situations when u check raise..
The check raise oop strategy can also be used in the blinds against the right opponents [the types who cbet far to much]
so say there is a raise to $8 [1/2 cash nl] from the hi-jack and u call from the bb with 87dd and the flop is -  qs ::
villain cbets $13 and u check raise to $40 and he calls , the turn brings a   giving u extra outs , still lead out [for value as u have picked up more outs] if villain reraises all in etc etc then u have the odds/equity to call , if he flats and u whiff the river u still have options to bluff or check fold the river [all player dependent on there tendencies]
So this check raise strategy can be used against agg cbettors or weak types  , u have other tactics such as leading out
or check calling but until your opponents adjust u can check raise for value your made hands,your draws and add in check raise bluffs for value also. Dont over do it but you"ll find players will play back at you far less than they really should, also when check raising i myself tend to keep my bet sizing around 3 to 3.5x as this isnt to small to price in villains funky draws etc nor is it to big to fold out villains weaker holdings likewise its not to big enough for villain to play his better hands correctly.
There are other nuances to this but if the thread develops or in future posts all of this met end up coming out

hope this explains the balancing out your range comment shoz  
edit - also good tactic to use against bad players , u want to play as many hands as u can [even oop] against these types... The A7hh 3bet to me suggest this villain has read about 3betting etc but has applied it badly with totally the wrong hand selection [ A2 TO A5s would be ideal , make wheel draws]

[JamieCarra]

Delete the results wen ur posting h/h"s - it really affects the responses!

What was the guys 3-bet %? That really affects a LOT of ur decisions like this, although ur sample size is quite small.  I think I 4-bet pre in hand 1 a good % of the time, but dnt mind flatting and playing one in position.  Def gna peel one on tht flop tho and see what he does on the turn.

Hand 2, again I prob 4-bet a fair %, esp wen oop!!  I also think u shud c/r the flop, or turn (obv he checked back the turn), to get more value.

Not a fan of 4betting pre in either as we"re pretty much turning our hand into a bluff.

Hand 1  - I"m not giving up on this flop anyway,  I probably call and then if checks bet aroun$8, if he bets again (assuming we have no history of him double / triple barrelling) then I probably give up.

Hand 2 - Don"t mind how you played it, I probably bet the turn when he checks to me though.

[noble1]

not bothered about the results for these examples , hand 1 is ok and hand 2 should be about how does shoz go about extracting more money from villain/villains in all similar situations..

[shozboy1]

thanks for the check-raise view. Check raising is probably an aspect of my game I need to develop.

[noble1]

thanks for the check-raise view. Check raising is probably an aspect of my game I need to develop.

not just check raising shoz but try to develop the understanding of why you are doing it versus particular opponent tendencies and how u can take advantage of equity and fold equity by having a well balanced range.

[shozboy1]

Its definitely something I need to learn more about. Its a useful alternative to the straightforward cbet that we all fire out as almost standard.