Hand 111 from 'winning poker tourneys one hand at a time'

[shozboy1]

Hi, this was an interesting hand I spotted in the book played by "Apestyles". It sort of relates to the 6max cash game JJ hand that was discussed afew days back (very loosely though). Obv this is a tourney though, but its at an early deep stack stage of the tourney so might be relevant to that hand...

early stages of a $320 buy in tourney. blinds 25-50. Afew aggressive regulars in seats 6, 8 and 9. Seats 1 and 4 are the only really tight players. Apestyles has a solid aggressive image.

seat 1 SB 2734
seat 2 BB 3325
seat 3     3550
seat 4     2711
seat 5     981
seat 6     4828
seat 7     4236 (apestyles)
seat 8     2915
btn         1720

seat 4 raises to 150. (Playing very tight). Apestyles calls 150. Flop is .

Seat 4 makes a cbet of 300 into 375 pot (total 675)

Apestyles raises to 800 and seat 4 reraises all in for 1761 more. Apestyles....?

[Paulie_D]

What do we have...I can"t see it?

[Marty719]

I think we have JJ and fold if our reads r tht he has been "very tight."  How can we be in good shape?

[Paulie_D]

I think we have JJ and fold if our reads r tht he has been "very tight."  How can we be in good shape?

I agree...but do we have the jc ?

And if we do, does it change our opinion? The V has played this very strong throughout, we have to credit him with a monster here.

But we"ve put in nearly 25% of our stack with JJ. Personally, I would have re-raised pre-flop to evaluate.

[shozboy1]

sorry, we have and

[LongshanksED]

I"d be a nit and just call the flop to keep the pot small then re evalutate on the turn.

We could hit ace/king/queen club that might freeze his action or a J may hit to give us more outs if we fill up on the river.  

[Marty719]

I"m flatting the flop - dnt really see what min-raising achieves against this given player.

I"m folding to the 3-bet shove on the flop as I dnt see how we are ever in good shape here.  

[shozboy1]

I"ll post up what Apestyles actually does after afew more people have had a chance to respond.

[deanp27]

so Apestyles raises the flop without knowing what he is going to do next with stack sizes? If so WTF did he raise, as a bluff?

flatting the flop would be better. If i a raising the flop i am probably getting it in, we are only dead to QQ-AA with a club or flopped flush, crushing 99-TT with a club and flipping virtually against a range of sets, draws (AcKx for example) - don"t have pokerstove at work to do the calcs.

not sure but with don"t like raising here without an idea of what we are going to do if called or jammed on,

[shozboy1]

sorry, I left out what he actually did and why to let peeps have a say about what should happen

[Paulie_D]

I"m flatting the flop - dnt really see what min-raising achieves against this given player.

I don"t think anyone mentioned min-raising..he might have raised more on the flop but it"s not a min-raise.

I"m folding to the 3-bet shove on the flop as I dnt see how we are ever in good shape here.  

Me three.

[Paulie_D]

Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?

If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?

[deanp27]

Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?

If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?

3betting preflop(when hero is not a LAggy player) vs a tight player results in this:

Better hands call or jam and worse hands fold. Also opens up the possibility of a 4bet from AK which we are struggling to call. Would you get jacks in pre vs a tight player for c60bbs?
3betting jacks to "see where you are" is basically turning a big hand into a bluff. Not great imo

I much prefer to play the streets here.

[Paulie_D]

Does anyone think 3 betting pre-flop would have achieved anything?

If we make it 500 pre-flop the villain has to define his hand for us in response. No?

3betting preflop(when hero is not a LAggy player) vs a tight player results in this:

Better hands call or jam and worse hands fold. Also opens up the possibility of a 4bet from AK which we are struggling to call. Would you get jacks in pre vs a tight player for c60bbs?

3betting jacks to "see where you are" is basically turning a big hand into a bluff.

I get all this but my point is that it would have been cheaper to 3 bet than raise the flop and STILL not know where we are when re-popped.

Typical tighties would do exactly as you say. Call or Jam. In which case, we can re-evaluate on the flop with position.

If AK 4 bets (and I don"t think this tighty would do this) we fold our medium pair with no issues for a much smaller % of our stack than where we are now.

I agree, betting for information is usually not a good idea usually because we don"t know what the information means. In this instance, I think we would get the information we were looking for.

Hey...just asking. As it"s played so far...I fold.

[shozboy1]

Here"s what actually happened and why Apestyles did what he did:

He called the flop - although the exact hand is irrelevant villain flipped pair of with in his hand.

Preflop decision: "At the moment, I"m paranoid about a big hand from a tight player. I could be up against anything from 66+ AQ+. he has 54 BBS, and he could 4bet a large part/all of his stack. When you get 54BBs of your stack in pfr early in a tourney with JJ vs a tight player, you"re usually behind. But, raise folding JJ here is terrible because it kills the value of our hand. It"d be better to raise him pfr with say 10-9o if I am going to fold to a 4bet. In situations where your opponent will shove or fold, re-raising with good hands not quite good enough to call all in with is bad because it turns your hand into any two random cards (simple when explained by a top notch player I guess)

As mentioned above by Paulie, Apestyles goes on to say "there"s also less value in raising with JJ here becuase it causes hands that I can extract value from to fold. He"s probably going to shove/flat AK+ and fold AJ/AQ. If he flats his monsters I will have to cbet the flop worse hands will fold (AK) and better ones checkraise me all in. Also when the flop comes an A or Khis range is way ahead of me, and I won"t be able to proceed past a cbet. Flat calling keeps the pot small against a strong range, disguises my hand, and has large implied odds when I hit a set. I call"