Was this attempted bluff terrible?

[shozboy1]

Opinions on this attempted bluff would be helpful. The guy had only sat down 3 hands ago and I had no history against him. I"m sure some people will say that if I had no idea of his stlye, I should"ve stayed clear of him. Second, I"m wondering whether I should"ve fired the turn instead of the river to show more strength then I did. (obv I"m pretty sure I should never have got myself in this spot, but no I"m there, views would be useful)
Also, should the villain have laid his hand down?


PokerStars Game #40449252833:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2010/02/28 13:39:41 WET [2010/02/28 8:39:41 ET]
Table "Mensa IV" 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: jtodb222 ($50.95 in chips)
Seat 2: haukso ($141.40 in chips)
Seat 3: shozboy ($51 in chips)
Seat 4: melina.rk ($42.95 in chips)
Seat 5: Lapphalter ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 6: Horin ($47.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Troelg ($63.40 in chips)
Seat 8: rokksztar ($30.80 in chips)
Seat 9: Sandhop ($143.25 in chips)
melina.rk: posts small blind $0.25
Lapphalter: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [ ]
Horin: folds
Troelg: folds
rokksztar: folds
Sandhop: folds
jtodb222: folds
haukso: folds
shozboy: raises $1 to $1.50
melina.rk: raises $3 to $4.50
Lapphalter: folds
shozboy: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [ ]
melina.rk: bets $5.50
shozboy: raises $6.50 to $12
melina.rk: calls $6.50
*** TURN *** [ ] []
melina.rk: checks
shozboy: checks
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
melina.rk: checks
shozboy: bets $16.50
melina.rk: calls $16.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
shozboy: shows [ ] (a pair of Fours)
melina.rk: shows [ ] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
melina.rk collected $63.50 from pot

[WYoung83]

 if i were him i would of called your river bet in a heart beat. if you had him beat with over pair you are never checking the turn imo and if you had somthing like 9-10s for example you would usually check behind on the river with the lack of action that happens on the turn. One important thing to remember is there are no draws on the flop so the river was never a scare card for him. The only hand he has to worry about here is the nuts, like a boat of full or quad 44s imo.

Cant explain why but it just looks weak (or suspicious is a better way to describe) i find that when oppo checks on turn after he has repoped on flop just looks like a weird line. defently a bad spot to bluff imo, and he actually played the hand well after the flop. You were owned in this hand because he checks the river to induce a bluff from you. Mark him down as a decant plyr and remember he 3 bets pre with 88.

playrs who 3 bet pre with 88s oop are somtimes explotiable.

[AMRN]

Shoz - to be honest, hate the way you played this hand from start to finish. The original raise is fine, but don"t like the call of the 3-bet, although with position, I guess it"s reasonable.   You need to look again at the sizing of the raise on the flop though - what were you hoping to achieve here? He probably has some sort of a hand, and it would be impossible to fold to the small raise you"ve made.

The check on the turn signifies weakness, and would look to him like you are trying to control the pot size now and just get to showdown..... so then your river bet just doesn"t fit with the story.

You will only ever get this river bluff through if your hand adds up to a believable story from start to finish, but I don"t think yours does.

Out of interest, what soft of hand did you put the other guy on? What were you trying to make him fold?

[WYoung83]

 To put it in more simple form......You have basically fired a "dark tunnel bluff" there was nothing for you to rep by betting the river, and as i said before your line just does not match up with over pair or top pair.

From his point of view you either had full boat/ quads or squadousce....and he had a had to pick you off.

[Marty719]

Shoz - to be honest, hate the way you played this hand from start to finish. The original raise is fine, but don"t like the call of the 3-bet, although with position, I guess it"s reasonable.   You need to look again at the sizing of the raise on the flop though - what were you hoping to achieve here? He probably has some sort of a hand, and it would be impossible to fold to the small raise you"ve made.

The check on the turn signifies weakness, and would look to him like you are trying to control the pot size now and just get to showdown..... so then your river bet just doesn"t fit with the story.

You will only ever get this river bluff through if your hand adds up to a believable story from start to finish, but I don"t think yours does.

Out of interest, what soft of hand did you put the other guy on? What were you trying to make him fold?

This, and also.....wat r u representing in this hand??  Bluffs have to make sense...this one does not.

[TheSnapper]

Agree with Will, Steve and Marty. Preflop call of his 3 bet is awful.

As a general rule at this level, bluffing has little value and should be used only in very rare and specific spots and as you noted yourself, versus the correct opponent. Profit at 50nl is almost exclusively had from folding when behind and getting maximum value from your winning hands. They just cant fold so BET BET BET, even with weak top pair hands you can extract 3 streets of value from the correct opponent.

[duke3016]

Yes (answering thread title)  

[bigredders]

Agree with Will, Steve and Marty. Preflop call of his 3 bet is awful.

As a general rule at this level, bluffing has little value and should be used only in very rare and specific spots and as you noted yourself, versus the correct opponent. Profit at 50nl is almost exclusively had from folding when behind and getting maximum value from your winning hands. They just cant fold so BET BET BET, even with weak top pair hands you can extract 3 streets of value from the correct opponent.

exactly...you just can"t bluff at this level, esp as it makes no sense in this case.

Just wait for premium and fast play to the max!

[WYoung83]

 You can bluff at these levels, but you have to make it seem real. Its not like the oppoent was a station in this hand, its just that shozes bluff timing was way off. The river here was not a scary card for 88s, and there were no draw cards to represent off the flop anyway, so it was just an ill timed bluff. I even think the opponent played the river well to check and induce a bluff that he is easily gonna pick off.....

[deanp27]

Dealt to shozboy [ ]

shozboy: raises $1 to $1.50
melina.rk: raises $3 to $4.50
Lapphalter: folds
shozboy: calls $3

forget the rest, i stopped reading at this bit in amazement

[shozboy1]

ok thanks. I knew I would get a well deserved pasting on this one. Part of my motivation to post this was to drive it home how terrible this was, so hopefully I won"t do it again.

After all the comments, I think the following actions would have been better, either:
1. fold preflop
2. Recognise I couldnt sell anything on this board to the villain so give up. Probably would have needed 1-2 broadways cards to   come down to make it semi-believable
3. If those broadways had come down either on the flop or turn, perhaps I would"ve been better bringing forward my river bet to the turn - more believable.

I"ve generally being doing ok at 25/50, but I think I"ve semi lost my way alittle in the last few weeks getting over-involved in pots with marginals and trying to outplay the wrong people (either decent players, or those that never fold)

[Swinebag]

10/10 for posting a hand that you played awfully. Hope you learn from it

[TheSnapper]

I"ve generally being doing ok at 25/50, but I think I"ve semi lost my way alittle in the last few weeks getting over-involved in pots with marginals and trying to outplay the wrong people (either decent players, or those that never fold)

Have been through this type of period, in my case, I got a bit over confident and tried to outplay them. The problem is that you tend to try and rewrite the rules for "outplay" and get involved with 5hitty hands like J7o  ( you"re not alone ). When really you just need to keep you"re ranges strong and exploit the fact that they play weaker ranges and pay you off light.

[George2Loose]

Fold Pre
Fold to the 3 bet
Fold flop
If you check raise flop, bet turn to set up river shove

[UKChamp]

Ignoring the obv hand selection issue I dont outright hate the call pre (so long as there is a credible plan/story to tell to the villain) but in that position and facing a 3bet from the blinds I am likely to 4b lighter and take from there if you really want to get involved. And in these positions I am nearly always 4b bluffing junk hands way more than marginal/value hands (which I otherwise flat with) that may run often into dominated positions once called down.

As for the flop raise I dont like it at all. Texture drives action and with such a dry and brick laden flop for a 3bet pot its difficult to see where someone would raise for value.

Villaims check check looks weak and screams pot control with over pair. If he had check turn bet river I would have read as house/AA-JJ but more likely I think he now has 88+ and with you checking back on the turn the river bet just doesnt tie up with any superior hand. Surely in your position over pairs would be looking to grwo the pot on the turn, only nut hands check back to induce a bluff and even then with the pot controlling line villain has taken I dont see him checking to fold at all, hes checking to snap call.