Folding Kings pre flop

[Swinebag]

Not much info on your opponent but why would he move all in with A A ?
Doesnt he want to try to get more out of his rockets?

how much more can he get without being all-in ?

by betting an ammount that his/her opponent wont fold to?

[kinboshi]

Dan Harington said that you should never fold kings preflop......If the other guy has one ace his got a 30% shot in winning...if he has A A , then you ve got an 18 % of winning...
So if you are right 1 out of 3 times you will lose...if you are wrong, 1/5 you win...
and you are getting 1 to 1 to your money... But so many other hands you will be dominating Q, Q   J , J... First hand your opponent might thing you are never calling an all in... Not much info on your opponent but why would he move all in with A A ?
Doesnt he want to try to get more out of his rockets?
It is really a hard one since i would not be happy seeing one ace on his hand not two of them ...30 % in busting out first hand yet you are miles ahead

The truth is 99% of the times the money has to go in...you see the line between making a great fold and a really stupid one is a really thin one. But if this is trully a skill game , the best players should be able to fold K K  preflop and that should be if they trully believe the other player has A A , not due to bubbling out considerations or making a higher pay day by folding their way to a better position on the final table.

Verdict: Call your mum and start crying!

Disagree with this completely. 

You win this hand and double up, you"ve won some chips.  Might help you get going in the tournament, but doesn"t mean you"re going to win a bean.

Lose, and it costs you £75 (plus any travelling costs, hotels, and of course, your time).

Harrington wasn"t referring to someone pushing all-in for 10,000 chips during the first level when he was talking about not folding kings. 

Would you fold queens here?  Why?  Worried about AA or KK?  Surely the same thing goes for kings?

Unless you think you"re a much worse player than everyone else, it"s an easy fold.  In a shorter stack tournament,with a quick structure, it"s an easy call.

[Mikeyboy9361]

I missed the first level all together, and came in near the end of the second. With a very frazzled brain!!

[kinboshi]

Not much info on your opponent but why would he move all in with A A ?
Doesnt he want to try to get more out of his rockets?

how much more can he get without being all-in ?

by betting an ammount that his/her opponent wont fold to?

It seems it is an amount that some won"t fold to though.

[Philippos13]

Well i did not take an actual position if you should call or fold...but the cost of the tourny (£75 traveling etc or any amount really ) should never influence your decision ...the decision as i explained should be 100% poker related ...saying i ll fold cost ive been driving for 3 hours is totally the wrong approach
Queens is a totally different situtation...you can never compare KK  and  QQ and you do know that....Queens will go in the muck in a second...at best you are looking at 50-50%
I do believe that it is essential to accumulate chips early on that will allow you to actual having a shot in winning...If it wrong to call with Kings on the first hand then when is it right to call? 10th hand? 30th? after 3 hours? (apat structure) What i do know, in walsall after 5 hours of play there were 170/200 still in with an average stack of 12 000! The structure suggests that you still have a lot of play after 5 hours and average chip stack...why would you call an all in then?
In poker you have to take calculated risks and sadly most of the times the best you can get is roughly 70%-30% in favour preflop in an all in situation (apart from pair over pair)

Dont get me wrong...id much rather play a flop with KK througout the tourny not just in the first hand...but if someone moves all in you have to call ...If it is on the first hand and you dont want to risk it then dont...live to fight another day....

Once again first hand...no right or wrong decision ...you cannot blame someone for calling ....you cannot blame someone for folding

[kinboshi]

Well i did not take an actual position if you should call or fold...

You said you"d call.

...but the cost of the tourny (£75 traveling etc or any amount really ) should never influence your decision ...the decision as i explained should be 100% poker related ...saying i ll fold cost ive been driving for 3 hours is totally the wrong approach

If you don"t care about the money, then ignore it.  But the reason I pay £75 to play in a deep-stack, well-structured tournament is not to gamble my tournament life in the first level, calling all-in against what is probably AA. 

Queens is a totally different situtation...you can never compare KK  and  QQ and you do know that....Queens will go in the muck in a second...at best you are looking at 50-50%

The kings will be there just as quick for me. 

I do believe that it is essential to accumulate chips early on that will allow you to actual having a shot in winning...If it wrong to call with Kings on the first hand then when is it right to call? 10th hand? 30th? after 3 hours? (apat structure)

It"s probably correct to call all-in with KK when the chip stacks and blind levels dictate that their range is greater than AA.  Also, with some knowledge of the player you have a much greater chance of being able to put him on an accurate range. 

What i do know, in walsall after 5 hours of play there were 170/200 still in with an average stack of 12 000! The structure suggests that you still have a lot of play after 5 hours and average chip stack...why would you call an all in then?

Average stack is pretty meaningless even after 5 hours.  I"m more interested in the size of my stack in relation to the blinds.  If I have a stack that"s pretty much average size, but I only have 15BB, then I"m  going to be calling all-in with my kings 99.99% of the time pre-flop.  In fact my chips will be in the middle before his.

In poker you have to take calculated risks and sadly most of the times the best you can get is roughly 70%-30% in favour preflop in an all in situation (apart from pair over pair)

The risk/reward isn"t right here.  If you think you are good enough, why do you want to risk your tournament life so early, when you will have plenty of other opportunities to accumulate chips.

Dont get me wrong...id much rather play a flop with KK througout the tourny not just in the first hand...but if someone moves all in you have to call ...If it is on the first hand and you dont want to risk it then dont...live to fight another day....

First hand, I certainly won"t be calling all-in with KK.  Absolutely, categorically, and definitely not.

Once again first hand...no right or wrong decision ...you cannot blame someone for calling ....you cannot blame someone for folding

Calling all-in with KK first hand is wrong in a deep-stack tournament.  If someone did call and they were knocked out, then they"d have zero sympathy from me. 

Like I said, in a short-stack tournament with a fast blind structure, the call would be easy.

However, if I am lucky enough to wake up first hand with AA in a future APAT National event, I might consider shoving pre-flop if there are lots of others who"d call with kings.

[Philippos13]

I think our views arent that contradictory....i share your thoughts in all you say apart that you make kings sound like 2-2 and that you are probably are up against A A...that can never be certain
If i knew the others hand, in fact id fold to any Ace first hand not just the rockets...

i ll take my time to think about it...try to feel if he is afraid...if there is no strong tell that he is afraid the kings have be mucked ...yet it is def not an insta fold

Thank you for your thoughts

[Swinebag]

This APAT academy is great!

I said near the start of this thread that I would struggle to lay KK down in this situation.
I feel I have "graduated" to the "easy fold" school of thought that most people are advocating, especially in a deep stack!

Thanks for improving my game.

I"ll still call if its the regionals though!

[kinboshi]

I think our views arent that contradictory....i share your thoughts in all you say apart that you make kings sound like 2-2 and that you are probably are up against A A...that can never be certain
If i knew the others hand, in fact id fold to any Ace first hand not just the rockets...

If I knew they had anything other than AA, I"d probably call.  I"m happy to take the punt when it"s a +EV move, and willing to be knocked out if they outdraw me.

i ll take my time to think about it...try to feel if he is afraid...if there is no strong tell that he is afraid the kings have be mucked ...yet it is def not an insta fold

My reading skills are not that good. I might be more willing to trust my reads against someone I"ve played against before or who I"ve spent a decent amount of time at the table with, but against someone I"ve never played or seen before - I don"t think they"d help me here. If they look like they want a call is that what they want me to think?  If they look like they want me to fold - the same.  If they"re sweating buckets, their pulse is 200 bpm, they can"t hold my gaze - then they"re either scared of the call or hoping I won"t fold. 

It"s interesting to see the different ways people think about hands and situations.  There"s never one right or wrong way to play a hand, but in this situation it"s definitely a fold for me. Lots of better players might disagree. 

Is it a style thing?

[kinboshi]

By the way, I"ve asked quite a few players about what they"d do in this situation. 

It"s a 50/50 split pretty much.  That"s a mixture of what I would say are decent amateurs and people who play professionally. 

Another case of there being no one right answer in poker...

[Philippos13]

So basically what we disagree in is the opponents starting hand and what we are willing to gamble with...

I might be more willing to gamble, that he does not have AA than you , but you would be more willing to gamble if you knew you were up ahead 70% to 30%

To be realistic for someone to move all in first hand it is eaither AA KK QQ or AK
out of these hands id just call to QQ or KK (higly unlikely though he has this)

You would call against QQ AK AND KK....

So after all you are more willing to call than me...hehehehe  
Im really not much of a gambler and prefer to play small pot poker so i would not take my 70% - 30% against any A on the first hand...
It is really a style thing cause some players would be willing to gamble early on situations such as this or draws and push a lot so either bust early or build a huge stack to bully the table...
Yet i think it requires a lot more skill to fold KK later on in a tourny if you really trust your reads and think you are up against AA .... (dont know if you seen the hand AA VS KK VS QQ  if you havent youtube it ...it is really sick)
Pre flop play made KK realize he was beat and folded the kings while QQ called...It was a genius fold that only a few players can really pull off

[kinboshi]

I folded QQ v AA in the Scottish APAT last season on a JT3 flop.  Would have folded KK too.  Trusted my read then.

That was the last hand before the dinner break. It wasn"t an all-in bet though. 

So after all you are more willing to call than me...hehehehe

If the cards were face up, maybe.  But in the actual situation, I"m calling 0% of the time.

[Philippos13]

It is all about playing a lot and being experienced...when you are experienced enough you can really sense the danger...you just get that feeling you know....i cant really explain it and i dont think someone who does not really play the game would understan.
But to last in a deepstack multitable tourny it is true that most probably you will have to make such taught laydowns...

[Mikeyboy9361]

Folding any big hand either pre or post flop is a big decision, and laying down any hand against a strong bet is always going to tax the old grey matter.After staring down you opponent and gathering all the information you can,you then process it all, and rely heavily on gut instinct and hope you make the right decision!
On Saturday I laid down Aces after the flop and was proved correct when was shown trip , I then laid down top pair against Kinboshi, I said he had nothing but he priced me out so I laid "em down, he actually had trip ! Complete mis read but the correct lay down!
Oh how the poker gods do use us for their sport.

[Jon MW]

I"d be in the school of thought that in a deep stack tournament it"s an easy fold, but in the situation described for the Regional it"s an easy call because of the proportion of my stack I"ve already committed versus the chances of winning the hand.

This weekend I consoled myself with a $10 deepstack tournament on Pokerstars, and managed to induce an all in call when I held Kings, from a player with a pair of jacks.

I probably don"t need to go into detail how that ended - so what do I know?