Author Topic: APAt Has lost it  (Read 34268 times)

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SirPercival

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2007, 21:52:25 PM »


Anyone else for 50000 chips?


Its true a lot of people seem to know nothing about "risk reward" or "pot odds" and it can be very frustrating when you get a bad beat (no names mentioned Sir Percival in tonights on-line Sat... you should know better  ;) ), but that is the nature of poker, when your good hand holds you think what a donk and thanks for the call.  Inexperienced players seem to be all in preflop no matter how many starting chips we seem to start with.... 


So you would fold QQ ?

I actually hate online qualifiers but only play them because I hate clickfest even more. This means my play if different also. I would like to go out early or make it through. Don"t want to "grind" like I had to when I qualified for Walsal.

p.s. didn"t get through, busted in 20th after running into AA with AK twice and then AJ v 99

linziwan

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2007, 22:14:56 PM »
Sorry Sir Perc I was watching when you went out and give a little cheer....    spiteful, and I am ashamed of myself, but it did make me feel a little better...  ;)

Just to answer your question - action before you went all in with QQ was several limpers, a raise, you reraised, a call to your raise, I then reraised a significant amount - a caller of my raise and then you went all in, when it got to your turn to act.  Then the 77 went all in (I think for the value) and it was down to me..... 

I actually nearly folded the Ks thinking one of you, or the person still to act may have the As, but with all those chips out there I couldn"t bring myself to do it, but I know I should have - three people already in the pot and one still to act I should not be playing Ks in a pot with three, still possibly four people, especially for my tournament life.  The tournament being a satellite also meant a fold as you are trying to get into the top 10% as opposed to actually the top three where the money is and I should wait until the odds are more in my favour. 

In answer to your question, yes I would have folded Qs, especially in the first level of the tournament, specifically because of all the action in front of me.

I was very happy when the cards were turned over and nobody had a pair of As, the fact that I lost the hand is just poker.  Bad beats happen to everybody and we have to take them.  

Well played and getting yourself into 20th was good, but I still couldn"t resist that little cheer....   ::)

Hopefully you got through the clickfest (hopefully I did too) and I see you in Manchester.    ;D



« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 22:35:19 PM by linziwan »
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SirPercival

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2007, 23:21:24 PM »

Sorry Sir Perc I was watching when you went out and give a little cheer....    spiteful, and I am ashamed of myself, but it did make me feel a little better...  ;)


Why would that make you feel better?
Personaly when someone suks out on me I want them to win the tourney - that makes me feel better. I don"t start sticking pins in a voodoo doll because some little plastic cards determined my fortune in the event. Maybe that says something about my personallity.

Quote

I actually nearly folded the Ks thinking one of you, or the person still to act may have the As, but with all those chips out there I couldn"t bring myself to do it


So you"d fold KK but not QQ.
My thinking was that others may fold thinking I had AA. Could easily have been holding JJ, TT or AK which may also be a fold. I am also aware that many like to gamble with a middle pair. Easy to argue it"s a bad play when you know the KK was there. As I said, my strategy is somewhat different for a qualifier.

Quote

Bad beats happen to everybody and we have to take them. 


We have all been on the other side of them as well.

Quote

Hopefully you got through the clickfest (hopefully I did too) and I see you in Manchester.    ;D



Look forward to making you think I only have QQ when I hold AA  ;D

EvelcyclopS

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2007, 03:08:34 AM »


Ive read the posts here and agree mostly with a few of these points;

$20+2 Buy in. It worked before, didnt harm your entrants, and increases the viability of playing for 5-6 hours.

4000 Stack with 12m blinds will work, you can overdo deepstacks by giving people too many chips with too long a level.

I like the idea of reintoducing a password, as someone pointed out earlier, it didnt harm sign ups, and probably helps to keep the jingo bingo bango riff raff out.

I"d like to bring another idea to the fore, perhaps its too late for this season, but i could never work out why points were awarded on a final table only scheme. This means (although unlikely to happen) that the person who wins a 100ppl tourny, will win the same amount of points as a person who wins a 250ppl tourny. This  i hope you can see is massively unjust. The way i would award it, would be to have a  configuration depending on amount of entries. Also, i feel the places that get points should be increased to the cash point (whyshould those who are rewarded with cash not be rewarded with points?). To reach the last 20 players of an 200+ player MTT is a very good achievement, and i think it shud be rewarded by points. I believe, (with good evidence) that an implementaion of this strategy will maintain the quality of the leaderboard, but importantly mean that decent play will be rewarded.

Please consider this strategy, as i really do feel it makes more sense.
...


I agree with the first few ideas but I don"t agree with the idea of changing the points depending on the number of entrants.

Some could be against this idea purely because its better to know exactly how many points are on offer before you start.

This is a valid argument and could make a significant difference to the outcome of a championship, if the top of the championship is tight like season 1, then one win could provide a new overall leader. Although we are likely to get a number of runners for the final of season 1 because of the extra prize involved, normally, the last few tournaments of a season will have fewer runners because a lot of people who are no longer in the running won"t play once they see that there"s no chance of them winning the overall race (sad but true). If there were less points available for tournaments with fewer runners this would mean that if you did well near the beginning you would, on average, gain more points then if you did well at the end - and I think most people would agree that it would be fundamentally unfair to reward some and penalise others, purely based on where in the season chronologically they happen to hit good form.

However, I have a much simpler objection to this idea. That is that the ranking points should primarily reflect skill. I don"t think that the winner of a 1000 runner tournament is 10 times more skilfull than the winner of a 100 runner tournament. I would suspect that (a) they just happen to enter different tournaments, (b) they have a similar amount of skill, and (c) the winner of the 1000 runner tournament needed just a bit more luck (an extra coin flip or 2 to win). So would it be fair for 2 players with roughly the same skill to get different points, just because one choose to enter a different tournament and/or had a little bit of extra luck?


It isnt really unfair at all. The points are awarded on allocation of dificulty. A small tournament is easier to win than a large one. Look at it this way, it is FAR more unfiar to accrue the same amount of points as someone who has had to beat a lot fewer people to those points. After running and participating in a highly recognised live league for four years, i can assure you that there is no loss of drama, probably moreso. In the first two years, the title went between 2 very good players, and was only decided in the last game of the league.

I believe your concept of tournament sizes dropping off a bit preposterous really. Surely, no matter what points structure you have, there will have been some point where the average player could no longer win (or even hope to win). With your logic, this would mean that the tournaent entries would drop off, (it would be interested to know if they did significantly drop off) This blows a veritable crater in you"re reasoning, as either way, tournaments will drop off in number, however the points are awarded. BUT importantly, with the current system, as tournaments drop off in size, it is all the more easier to win the tournaments, which,is of great unfairness those who won bigger tournaments earlier in the season. As you said "it would be fundamentally unfair to reward some and penalise others, purely based on where in the season chronologically they happen to hit good form."

Your point regarding the skill required to win a 100 vs a 1000 tourny.

You didnt understand my initial post; points are awarded on a entrant based sliding scale. The winner of a 1000 person tournament would not win a prize of 10x more. Also, i believe that it does require FAR more skill to win a tournament of 1000 players, and your idea that it only requires one more coin flip is the worst rhetoric ive heard in a long time. I"ve won 100 ppl tourneys by literally winning a dozen hands, could you do that in a 1000ppl mtt?  Its like saying it takes approximately the same amount of skill to win your local casino MTT than the $5000 omaha WSOP event (back in the days when there was only about a 1000 entrants) granted that there is likely to be a higher standard of play, but you get my point im sure.

Also, it is also very unlikely that there will be a time in an APAt season, where  the tournys swing from 100 people to 1000.

It can all be boiled down to which is fairer, awarding the same points 100% ignorant of the size of field, or awarding points based on logical conjecture, that states that the bigger tournaments get, the harder they are to win, therefore require larger prizes.

And finally, if ive played 5 APAt MTTS, and came 3rd in one of them, 11th, 13th and 19th in three and failed to cash in the other two, then why on EARTH should someone who has played 20 APAt MTTs, and came 2nd in one of them, and failed to cash in all other tournaments have more points than me?

And the beauty of is just that, regular cashes are rewarded with points, in my 3rd gamelast year, i was placed 5/11. I already had a win under my belt, and was looking forward to another big caash within the month. I got AK, found myself all in, facing AQ, and suffered the beat. I went out 11th. for 5 hours i sat there playing fantastic poker. For £30. And nothing else. Again, like you argued before, why should the way points be awarded be based on the outcomes of a coinflip? (allthough AQ vs AK is far from a coinflip , in another situation, it could easily be so).

Again apologies for length (i thin there must be summmit in my mothers genes too)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 03:20:51 AM by EvelcyclopS »
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RioRodent

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2007, 07:17:33 AM »


... A small tournament is easier to win than a large one....



I think there is a bit more to this statement than meets the eye, and I don"t believe it is necessarily true.

It may be true that a lower standard player may get lucky enough times to win one small tournament but over time they would certainly lose money.

Taken to it"s extreme you could train a chimp to push all it"s chips over the line every hand and it could quite easily beat any top pro in any one heads-up match.

If the standard of the core of the players remains the same then I would say that it is easier to get deep and cash, and even win occaisionally, in a larger tournament than a small one.

Another slightly less extreme example...

You are in a 10 man NKHE tourney, the field is -

You
Phil Helmuth
Doyle Brunson
Phil Ivey
Gus Hansen
Joe Beevers
Roland de Wolfe
Greg Raymer
Praz Banzi
Karl Marenholz

It pays out, points and prize money to the top 10% - that is 1 place - winner takes all... How often do think you will win this tournament?

Now imagine You and these same 9 players take part in a 200 man tourney, with 190 random poor to not so bad players. There will still be 10% of the field get paid.

Now you have to get into the top 20 to get paid. The pros might fill the top 9 places but there are still 11 paid places for you to get some return. It is more likely that half the pros would be eliminated along the way, enabling perhaps 15 much inferior players to take home a piece of the cake.

I didn"t read the rest of the post, it was too long!  :D

8)
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thacker

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2007, 23:20:45 PM »
makes me laugh.... You complain about the standard i cant even get to play. Iv found it a lot easier to get to a final table than get to play in the first place. I managed to play in Luton only because i was on the reserve list and got an e-mail the day before. My net connection is rubbish and wont win a clickfest. So i went walsall. Sat there for 5 hours didn"t get a game. Now i see the world event ,at short notice, has been put online the weekend im in cork(plus the opening of dtd). Why wasn"t this tourney mentioned a long time before? Oh yeah im not in manchester either. So anyone who wants to moan about the standard. Either p*** off and join a bigger game and see how good you really are or count yourself lucky you are getting a game.As you see im hacked off with it all.

EvelcyclopS

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2007, 02:38:35 AM »
Yeah cheers thats really helpful.

Riorodent-

im confused... are you arguing against what i said?  ??? :D

by the way, has any0ne ever noticed, that there are 2 Ad cards in the smileys bit? 2x Ad, that has to be +ev
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RioRodent

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2007, 08:54:41 AM »


Riorodent-

im confused... are you arguing against what i said?  ??? :D



Yes... and No. The example of chimp playing heads-up was to illustrate that it might be easier to a really small tournament - a heads-up match - because you just need to get lucky once.

But, given 9 top class opponents it would be easier to win money, and maybe even the tournament, in a 200 man tourney over a 10 man tourney.

I have first hand knowledge of this. In the summer I played in a tournament, that paid 10% of the field, with the following...

Phil Helmuth
Dave Colclough
Karl Marenholz
Marcel Luske
Men "The Master" Nguyen
Kathy Liebert
Chris Ferguson
Johnny Chan
Phil Gordon

Now if this had been a STT I would have rated my chances of being in the top 10% [winning] as somewhere between slim and none!

In fact there were 2778 runners and I cruised into the money. None of the above made the final table and the winner was an amateur.

I was not making a comment about the current APAT point structure, simply about your statement that, "A small tournament is easier to win than a large one." Which I do not believe to be true.

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

duncthehat

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2007, 20:30:17 PM »
Purely on a ranking points arguement and not taking money into account at all.

There are what around 18 players turning up at Plymouth for the regionals and around 80 at Luton for example.

Obviously you can only beat who turns up but with 6 regional ranking point events, players in plymouth for example (not that I have anything against plymouth guys ok!!) are likely statistically to make the ranking points in 50 per cent of the tournaments. as oppossed to around 8 per cent at luton.

It is extremely likely that some players will make the points 6 times in such a poor attended venue ensuring that these players are very high up the leaderboard.

Say a player wins one comes third twice say 4th once and 5th once out of the 18 players thus getting 34 ish points!!!.

Surely this is a massive headstart on those 1. struggling to make any regionals or 2.having to play in 80 player fields and with the increased difficulty in getting to play in the nationals my predictions is there will be MORE players from the south west in the final leaderboard top ten than anywhere else in the country.

Obviously again its season 2 and we are all on a learning curve and I for one have NOT got a solution.

Sliding scale is unfair as well.

no solutions just my twopenneth!!!

3 hour drive to plymouth tempting hmmmmmmm

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EvelcyclopS

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2007, 00:16:59 AM »
I dont understand, the sliding scale is a solution for the complaint youve just made, why is it unfair? HAve you understood what i mean?
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kinboshi

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2007, 15:58:48 PM »

I dont understand, the sliding scale is a solution for the complaint youve just made, why is it unfair? HAve you understood what i mean?


Yes we have.

If the sliding scale was introduced in Plymouth (for example), then the players there would be penalised, as they"d be unable to score as many points as people in other regions. 

Have you understood what we"re saying?
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hollaboo

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2007, 17:31:54 PM »
Maybe for season 3 the regionals  could be kept as qualifiers for the nationals and medals but do away with the ranking points given the differences in attendance. I for one would still attend as its a great opportunity to play live in a well structured tournament

kinboshi

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2007, 17:41:41 PM »
Maybe each venue could have its own league table - which would mean that anyone playing in that venue would be competing with people on a level playing field?

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linziwan

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2007, 23:44:53 PM »

Maybe each venue could have its own league table - which would mean that anyone playing in that venue would be competing with people on a level playing field?




Now that is a really good idea.  Something for the APAT team to think about next year. 

Unfortunately I don"t think it fair to change the system that has started already.  Plymouth, how the hell do I get to Plymouth - definitely in my region   ::)

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tumblet

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Re: APAt Has lost it
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2007, 14:10:59 PM »

If the sliding scale was introduced in Plymouth (for example), then the players there would be penalised, as they"d be unable to score as many points as people in other regions. 


I know I have had strong opinions on this, not that I think it should be changed this season, but for next season. Seeing this made me think more, and they could earn the same points, if 1st got 9 points, but with less in say for example 30, then 2nd gets 8, and 3rd 7.. nothing for 4th, thus giving players a chance to earn the same as other regionals, just not so many getting points.


Maybe each venue could have its own league table - which would mean that anyone playing in that venue would be competing with people on a level playing field?


Not a bad idea at all, the only drawback then is that you cannot try another regional venue if the one you want is closed.

I can see for season 3 that possibly more people will play these comps, or they could open it up for more than 80 players, which would change the whole points system anyway IMO.