Is it possible to get off this hand

[Hammerite]

 A hand from the Main Event at DTD. Cant exactly remember but I am 99% certain the blinds were 200-400. I have accumulated a nice few chips in the early levels and I have 46k. It is folded round to me on the big blind correction small blind, I have    ts and flat call hoping to see a flop. The big blind who has recently joined the table and about whom I have no knowledge, checks. He has roughly 20k

The flop  comes   tc giving me 2 pair I bet 1000 it is called, the river is   I bet 3000 which is called, I am now thinking he either has hit his set or I am behind to an over pair, but as there was no pre raise flop I am also thinking he may have a low pair maybe or deuces and just wanted to see a flop before committing any chips.

The river is giving me the boat, I now know that I am only losing to one card unless he does have an over pair which as I said earlier I have ruled out.  I check and he pushes and I make an uneasy call. He shows  qd for quads. Now I look back on it this was my chance to save 15/16k when he pushes. I am still thinking that if I put him on hitting his set earlier then he has made quads on the river so why am I calling. But I was torn between him having the four or a small pair and I made the call. Is it possible to get off this hand ?

[Marty719]

100% possible - i prob c/f turn against some abc players.  river is 10000000% a fold - we beat nothing unless he is advanced enough for double float.

Edit: also raise or fold pre at this level - blinds and antes are too valuable and playing oop vs a 50x stack sucks.

[AMRN]

I think the error in the hand is preflop - and I presume when you say you limp on the big blind, you actually mean you limp on the button?  I hate the limp - you gave the BB a chance to catch a miracle... one that he would not have had if you had raised.... can"t see too many people calling a raise from the BB with Q4o....

As played, once you get to that river, no I don"t think you can fold there.

[Marty719]

I think the error in the hand is preflop - and I presume when you say you limp on the big blind, you actually mean you limp on the button?  I hate the limp - you gave the BB a chance to catch a miracle... one that he would not have had if you had raised.... can"t see too many people calling a raise from the BB with Q4o....

As played, once you get to that river, no I don"t think you can fold there.

What hand do you think shoves river that we beat Steve?  Surely we call for chops only?  If they are advanced enough to double float us or turn marginally worse hands into bluffs, then fair play, but without that info...

[Hammerite]

Sorry made a rick there folded round to me on the small blind. ps thanks for the advice guys.

[AMRN]

Sorry made a rick there folded round to me on the small blind. ps thanks for the advice guys.

That changes the dynamic as however the hand plays out, he now has position, and could quite conceivably be floating with the intention of setting up a bluff.

I really hate making up in the SB in an unopened pot as you just set yourself up to play a hand out of position against random cards. At least by raising here, you can give yourself some semblance of a chance of defining his range if he calls.

@Marty - yes quite possibly looking at a chop at best I guess, and on that premise, you"re probably right that the fold is the better option. I suspect that having hit what feels like the nuts on the end, some (including me) would find it tough to fold.

[pables]

A hand from the Main Event at DTD. Cant exactly remember but I am 99% certain the blinds were 200-400. I have accumulated a nice few chips in the early levels and I have 46k. It is folded round to me on the big blind correction small blind, I have    ts and flat call hoping to see a flop. The big blind who has recently joined the table and about whom I have no knowledge, checks. He has roughly 20k

The flop  comes   tc giving me 2 pair I bet 1000 it is called, the river is   I bet 3000 which is called, I am now thinking he either has hit his set or I am behind to an over pair, but as there was no pre raise flop I am also thinking he may have a low pair maybe or deuces and just wanted to see a flop before committing any chips.

The river is giving me the boat, I now know that I am only losing to one card unless he does have an over pair which as I said earlier I have ruled out.  I check and he pushes and I make an uneasy call. He shows  qd for quads. Now I look back on it this was my chance to save 15/16k when he pushes. I am still thinking that if I put him on hitting his set earlier then he has made quads on the river so why am I calling. But I was torn between him having the four or a small pair and I made the call. Is it possible to get off this hand ?

Yes!

Don, I tend to agree with the guys that you missed a bet with your 10-8 pre flop and after that I"m not playing my hand..... I"m pondering his.

Nice to have met you and will post later when I"ve had sopme kip

Ian

[deanp27]

if you want proper analysis don"t post the result - think your betsizing throughout the hand is pretty bad in my opinion though, can"t see someone floating a > potsized bet on two streets.

[Hammerite]

if you want proper analysis don"t post the result - think your betsizing throughout the hand is pretty bad in my opinion though, can"t see someone floating a > potsized bet on two streets.

Ok sorry about posting the result I have not used this thread before but what your saying makes sense. What would you have bet ? I might as well learn something that"s the point I guess. I think I have found out what I was pretty sure I knew already i.e.  I  played the hand badly.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Swinebag]

I think any option is ok pre here, but raising is best.

bet less on the flop (say 500 - 600). 2/3 to 3/4 pot will give you the same result as overbetting the pot.

you bet 1K on flop and 3K on the turn and are now playing a huge pot, putting yourself in a horrible spot on the river. When oppo shoves, its a chop at best so I"d fold there.

If I had got to the river cheaper, oppo may not have shoved and I would call a reasonable river bet (coz I is a station)

[WYoung83]

 I actually dont mind the limp from sb with a hand like this, your hand has to much potential post flop to have to fold to a bb 3 bet, so by limping u are disguising your hand while at the same time keeping the pot under controll, you are defently deep stacked enough to play suited connectors post flop, even oop vs 1 plyr. (if he raises your limp then i would call and take a flop)

As the hand plays betting on the flop is standard, although maybe a little big imo, i would check/call the turn for pot controll because you have showdown value. River is really cold, but the point of the smaller flop bet, and check of turn means that in this situation you loose much less when u get coolered like this.

[dwh103]

I"d raise pre here with this hand (what a surprise from me). I"m not calling the SB in an unopened pot unless there"s a player specific reason why I should (disguise, pot control, calling station etc etc). Calling here with info provided is bad imo (sorry Don!).

When I see the flop I think about how many streets this hand is worth. Top pair no kicker is a one street hand to me, i.e. one street"s worth of value is reasonable, can"t see more being put in without the opponent having you beat.

As played, the flop decision isn"t that easy. I mix it up with either a 50-100% pot bet or a check depending on a snap assessment of my opponent. Betting narrows your hand range down a lot, so depends how good he is. Checking allows you to potentially get value from a weaker holding later on, but you let him have 3 or 6 outs to bink a higher pair. I probably check as am happy to pot control and don"t mind the risk.

Turn is definitely a check for me as played - highly unlikely you can bet for value here (what worse hand will call you?). If your opponent bets, you can make a decision there as to whether he"s floating or not. I imagine a 10 could bet you off of it on the turn, but that"s the power of position and reminds you why you should raise it up pre!

If he checks the turn, then I"m likely check-calling a reasonable bet on the river. If he bets turn I might peel a river card depending on how bad I"m playing. In the cold light of day and as played it"s probably a fold on turn or river for me.

[noble1]

not much to add that will help you Hammer , ref - the points on your bet sizing , you pretty much give away your hand so his river value shove was perfect straight forward thinking putting u on a ten..
without reads and being oop like marty points out its hard to imagine that villain has turned a pair of 66"s or worse into a bluff shove overbet on this texture, a ten maybe but even then i"d be inclined to fold this deep saying ""great value bet"" with a big grin.
meh as played to river and villain calling flop/turn pot size bets , with no specific read on villains tendencies then deciding to check call a reasonable bet is ok , calling the river shove though is meh as villain has to be bluffing 40% plus , he has no read on you i presume having only joined the table , so that would all add up to check fold to his river shove...

just some articles to get u thinking -
http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/considering-variables-against-ranges-489859/
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/Overbetting-Brandon-Adams-618.htm
http://www.pokernews.com/strategy/representing-hands-with-shaun-deeb-8295.htm

[PHIL_TC]

Just my twopennth - I don"t mind the limp in here either Don, I"d have probably done the same myself. I know most people would hate that but agree with Will on pot control and a highly potential hand that should be easy to get away from. As the hand plays out, the bet on the flop is a little high, I"d have gone 3/4 pot, once called on the flop and especially the call on the turn I"m not putting anymore into the pot on the river as alarm bells would be ringing. Once he pushes on the river I"d tank fold. But then I"m a nit Horrible situation for you though mate.

[Marty719]

I honestly don"t believe the river is that horrible.  We have to realise that we are only calling for a chop at best.  Chip preservation is a massively important concept in tournament poker, and calling for chops is pretty much always -EV.

Its actually one of the best rivers for our hand as it makes it massively unlikely that opponent will turn his hand into a bluff (trying to get ppl to fold houses by repping quads in NLH is never a great idea).