KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?

[Swinebag]

Surely a raise to 2-2.5K is getting us pot committed, so we aren"t folding are we? An ace high flop kills the action against QQ,JJ hands that you would otherwise stack. You wouldn"t be folding on a Q or J hi flop where you could already be outdrawn so why the fold on a A hi flop?? Or better still...just shove

If we run into Aces, we"ve been coolered. Coolers, like bad beats, happen in poker and should be unavoidable. If we try and take lines that try and avoid coolers then we are not getting max value out of our hands and probably losing long term.

If the stacks were deeper and the clock slower then a more cautious line is acceptable, but not here

[AMRN]

Shove it in, simplez.

With these stack sizes, calling is just bad, raising pre then folding the flop is awful - so your stack just has to go in at some point... may as well be preflop to maximize value from underpairs.

[noble1]

4B folding KK for 50% of our stack wud be the worst thing of all time.

sorry marty just nit picking, u mean 5bet?  

button who is never 4 betting light but can overplay small/medium pairs and AK/AQ makes it 800

a little bit contradictory that shanks.. as per reads i"m in the ship it camp...
somrthing to get u thinking shanks - http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=bluff_magazine&id=2817110

[Mikeyboy9361]

Raise to 2500, and shove any flop that doesn"t include an Ace. If you get re popped, which would surely be a push, you can then re evaluate. Question asked and answered, but can you lay your Kings down, don"t think I could.

4B folding KK for 50% of our stack wud be the worst thing of all time.

TBH it depends what type and the quality of the tournament, if this was a typical pub league ( in which I play quite regularly) I would back myself to play my way back with 50% of my starting stack, from this early in the piece. But as I said I don"t think I could lay "em down.

[deanp27]

splash your chips all over the table with excitement

[shozboy1]

The main worry is the button. I would reraise to 2000ish, call any preflop reraise from the button (assuming its an all in).

Shoving now however might just get someone (likely the button) to lay down hands like JJ-88/AQ which would be bad. If he repops you with AA preflop and you call its the same situation as shoving all in anyway. i.e. the outcome is the same.

If you repop to 2000 and assuming the btn calls, you can happily shove any flop not containing an ace.
If it does contain an ace you can re-evaluate. If you check and he checks behind, I"ll probably shove the turn. If you check, he bets, then depending on reads/tells/bet size fold equity etc you could check raise all in etc etc.

Most flops won"t contain an ace, the 15% odd time they do (noble correct that % if its wrong) its not necessarily a check-fold situation, so all is not lost either.

[AMRN]

Shoz - you"re not considering the value you will miss from hands like QQ/JJ that will almost always call you shove preflop.... but will likely fold if you shove a flop with an overcard on.

shoving pre ensures you get maximum value against underpairs and AK

[shozboy1]

ok I see what you are saying there. Your saying by shoving preflop you get someone to put all their money in now with jj/qq rather then finding a way out by folding on a ace high/king high flop.

I take your point, but that would be read dependent aswell. Depending on the event/reads/buy in/stage of tourney etc, if I was the button I"d be thinking...

"I"ve just repopped someone who just 3bet an UTG raiser, and I"ve then been reshoved all in by someone from the small blind. I could conceivably fold QQ here and definitely JJ".

I think if the button gets shoved on JJ becomes a pretty easy fold. What am I saying? I dont really know! there"s no standard way to play this imho. I think its got to be player/read dependent. Seen as I"m 5betting (i think) a tight buttn player who"s just 4 bet I dont think he"ll ever show up with less than QQ so we"ll be "getting it in" one way or another.

It becomes a player dependent issue. Is he someone who gets scared by overcards? Will he never let go of a premium pair? If the answer to second question is yes, then easy preflop shove all in.

[Marty719]

u think shoving loses value from 88-jj?  What do u think these hands do wen u make it 2k?  U know how strong making it 2k looks?

[LongshanksED]

i was really wondering about the shove - i thought if i shoved, then any pair >1010 would fold except the 4 bettor who would snap call with a pair like QQ > 77 or AK/AQ

im also not raising to fold any flop if i get it heads up with one player, if i make it 2k im pretty much calling the final 3k on any flop. and if they have aces or a raggy/mid ace and hits then so be it, coolered to an extent

i actually made it 2.5k which i thought would not only make me pot commited to a shove from one, its putting the others to a tough decision. their shove or fold, yet if its a shove then call before action is back to me i can make a real tough decision and probably make a bad fold

thoughts on my 2.5k bet? bad, spewy?

[LongshanksED]

also after my 2.5k raise its folded to the 4 bettor who shoved which i know im already calling

[wildy]

 all in.
defo

[shozboy1]

it all worked out "correctly" then - if he had aces so be it.

People say folding kings in any spot preflop is bad in the long term. I dont think I"ve ever folded kings preflop. However, I"m certain I saw Ram Vaswani do just that in the WSOPE 2009 main event on TV coverage. The other guy had aces. From memory I think the villain raised with aces, ram 3 bet, villain 4 bet, ram 5 bet and villain shoved and ram folded. Something along those lines anyway. Perhaps he thought that folding KK is overall -EV but given the situation of a wsope bracelet, down to the last 20 or so players, maybe reads and all he was sure the guy had aces and didnt want to bust at this stage.

[LongshanksED]

ive laid them down once - it was the bubble to a live event with virign poker - 2 players all in with my KK in the SB - 3 paid and 4 left when short went all in utg and button re shoved who had 1 BB more. i had them both covered but thought the best move was to fold, and it was as button aces held up

[Marty719]

it all worked out "correctly" then - if he had aces so be it.

People say folding kings in any spot preflop is bad in the long term. I dont think I"ve ever folded kings preflop. However, I"m certain I saw Ram Vaswani do just that in the WSOPE 2009 main event on TV coverage. The other guy had aces. From memory I think the villain raised with aces, ram 3 bet, villain 4 bet, ram 5 bet and villain shoved and ram folded. Something along those lines anyway. Perhaps he thought that folding KK is overall -EV but given the situation of a wsope bracelet, down to the last 20 or so players, maybe reads and all he was sure the guy had aces and didnt want to bust at this stage.

This was the worst fold of all time after Ram"s betsizing.