Building Huge Chip stacks

[Philippos13]

I ve playing a lot of MTT lately (in the range of 400-800 people)
and while im playing solid poker i never seem to get far...Best result was 50th but usually im out around places 100-200.
As i said i play solid poker and by that i do not mean i play ABC text book poker...i play a fair amount of hands 25-30% , i raise and reraise when i think i can steal the pot even i might not have the best hand , and i pull off the occasional blauf...im not too loose and i certainly do not donk chips away...

Where is the problem? While i steadily build my chipstack , i then take a look at the lobby only to see 50 people with enormous chipstacks. e.g this means in a tourny with starting stacks of 3000 some will have around 40000 while i having played good poker and probably losing just a couple of pots ill be around 9000

Sooner or later i find myself not able to compete with them and the growing blinds...



So here is the question:
1) What do i do wrong? Why i can never build such a stack?
2) How do they do it?
3) Is it by chance i.e more than their fair share of luck?



Anyone thoughts or any advice on how could i improve my game?
Thank you all

[asarge]

its because your not very good philip. maybe you should try your hand at another game
only joking pal. i know exactly what you mean, and i have the same problem and would be interested in what advise people can give here as well

[lazaroonie]

its like investing money - its all dependant on your attitude to risk. Those willing to risk more will gain more, or lose more.

To get a huge chipstack in a tourney, (we are talking before the end stages here), you must be willing to put all your chips at risk, very often at no better than 50/50 odds. This means you are also at risk of going out.

Persoanlly the big stacks dont bother me - my own position relative to the average chip stack, and the blind levels is what interests me.

Tournament poker is about survival. You dont get any prizes for being the chipleader at halfway. Only at the end...

[kinboshi]

Great post Laz.  Was about to say the same. 

I"ve been chip-leader half-way through a tournament with more than double the next player, and haven"t made the final table.

Of course, getting a large stack early can help - but as Laz said, it"s about having the chips at the end.  I focus on the size of my stack in relation to the blinds, with a small eye on the average chip stack (but this is usually a far smaller consideration). 

If you"re getting to the mid-late stages and you only have 5xBB, then yes you are putting your tournament survival in the laps of the poker gods.  The larger stacks will often not be folding to your pre-flop shove, and even if you have a monster it"s not guaranteed to hold up.  So it might be the case that you need to get busier slightly earlier?  Alternatively, you might be getting "busy" slightly too early with marginal hands when in fact you could be waiting a little longer for slightly better opportunities to steal or double-up.

The other thing to remember is variance.  You might be playing perfectly, and the luck is running against you in the short term. 

[GiMac]

I can only echo Laz and Dan"s posts above.

An MTT is all about survival and, whilst getting a big chip stack early on means you should go deeper it doesn"t guarantee a final table appearance. In fact some of my best results have come where I"ve been bumping along between half average stack and average stack. Your stack in relation to the cost per round is far more important. It"s all about making the money or final table and once that has been acheived making the most of the situation you find yourself in. For instance I was recently playing a live rebuy tournie and didn"t win a hand during the rebuy period. I rebought and topped up and then had very few hands or stealing situations, but managed to survive to the final table and got there with 4 x BB, which to be fair was a bit short. But once on the final table managed to get a good run of cards, won a few races and ended up winning the tournament outright. On another occasion I had the preverbial 1 chip left on the bubble of local £200 tournie. Instead of just chucking in with any 2 cards I waited nearly a full round before I had a hand i thought would be ahead and played then, quadrupling up whilst someone was getting their bullets cracked on the other table by the chip leader and ended up coming 5th for £800.

I think what we are mainly saying is don"t worry too much about others. Just concentrate on managing your own stack and dont panic if you get "short", stick to your game and if it"s good enough, and the poker gods are smiling, it will shine through.

[George2Loose]

1. Re raise with drawing hands
2. Value bet thinner- I see a lot of people check down top pair when they get action. Somtimes a value bet on the end can earn you valuable chips.
3. Be more aggressive around the bubble- and be prepared to bust out to win and not just cash

Again tho to get chips you have to risk chips- doing the above may see you reduce your stack considerably.

[duke3016]

GiMac is right about Dan being right, who was in turn was right about Laz being right, who incidently was very eloquent in his post. Follow their advice and you won"t go far wrong.

edit: personally i never listen to any of them, but I usually can be found propping the bar at tournaments because of that  

[Digger]

I think you would be shocked at the number of early big stacks that don"t make it to the money. They are in this situation because they play a very loose aggresive game & take big risks & hit draws & flushes. Eventually there luck runs out or they run in to a good player that has clocked there style earlier in the game.

Take a note of the names after two hours or so & then check it out at the end. To cash in MTT"s you do have to take some risks & get some luck too.

Have fun & good luck!

[kinboshi]

Gears. That"s the key.  Whatever your natural style is, during a tournament you need to change gears and mix up your play.  That"s the key for me.  That and a lot of luck.

[The_rookie]

it"s true it"s all about being able to get a read on the table and know how to play them just pick the right spots to get your chips in and dont over play small hands

[KingPoker]

Patience Patience Patience,

Best part of laz"s post was about keeping ur stack above or in line with the avergae chip stack, that to me is a hell of a lot more important than sitting with a mountain of chips. Personally what i aim for in any tourney is anywhere between 30-40 BB"s, im hugely comfortable in this slot and it allows me to make the occasional play but have more than enough in reserve to not put me at risk.

And also another important bit of advice is dont panic when shortstacked. I find that i play my best game when short stacked as thats when strategy becomes hugely important. When ur a big stack its a hell of a hard thing to remain a big stack.

And i play very hard around the bubble, no matter what my chip stack is, in APAT newcastle i was a big chip daddy but unfortunately the other 4 big chip daddies were also on my table so i was trying to double up through one of them to basically guarantee the final table placing but lost the crucial coin flip and was knocked out when i could have easily walked into the money. Would i do it again? Yes! everytime, because im always thinking about the win and not about doubling my return or paying for the weekned.

So to some up, sometimes it hugely important to be that hyper agressive player that you see with the chips, to gain a stack, but preferably save it for the later stages of the tourney, not at the start where you can"t win it, only lose it!

[BioBlinx]

I like what KingPoker says about staying around the 30-40BB level, this would be a good aim. But I also find I have a hell of a lot of patience when shortstacked, I feel I can choose my spots well although sometimes I misjudge it .

Whats people"s opinions on the average stack amount? I personally don"t read too much into that as others seem to. A lot of people seem to have it as an important thing but I would much rather use Harrington"s M that he talks about in his books thank stressing over whether I"m near the average stack or not. Even though below average stack will put you shorter stacked relative to the field, if you can manage the blinds etc with your stack then I dont see too much of a problem?

[The_rookie]

right here goes

"" A chip stack can be a fortress, a tool or a trap. It can bully the weak and shame the greedy.
It can force you into action when it dwindles or keep you out of trouble when it"s full-grown.

We play because inside every short stack there"s a large stack waiting to be born""

sorry but i love this line

[AllanD23]

Whats people"s opinions on the average stack amount?

lots of common sense in this thread that i don"t need to repeat but to add abit about average stacks...
if you"re on average stack in a tourney you"ll have more chips than the majority of players left in the tourney and you"re usually in not too bad shape relative to the blinds.
I should add that I do pay more attention to the blinds/antes than the average stack as obviously it only changes when someone gets knocked out so won"t neccessarily change on a hand by hand basis.
If there was 100 left and you had exactly average, you"d probably be in the range of 36th to 43rd in chips (rough figures). You also find the top 10-12 have big stacks and 1, 2 or sometimes 3 will have a humungous amount of chips.
You need to play a different game with a big stack and as laz says, you should expect huge swings in your stack size during earlier phases of the tourney as that"s the way you would need to be playing to get a huge stack in the first place, even changing gears doesn"t always seem to help. Gambling basically and although i love poker, i hate gambling :-) go figure... The big stacks do seem to bomb out quite often, even my home game the 2 big stacks at the break were first out last time...never even made the final table...needs a different game with a gearbox and clutch and stuff and a lot don"t seem to manage it.
So in summary, i"m not too bothered about gaining a huge stack (though I am always trying to gain chips lol) but do pay attention to M (blinds in relation to my stack) and average stacks etc.
A big stack won"t guarantee you winning the tourney but should get you a good few levels higher up the pay structure if you get it at the right time and then use it sensibly.
Don"t get me wrong though, if i end up with a big stack i"m not usually too upset about it  

[Eck]

Whats people"s opinions on the average stack amount?

even my home game the 2 big stacks at the break were first out last time...never even made the final table...

That was a hell of a long winded post just to get a dig in