Do we call?

[pokerpops]

TEXAS_HOLDEM, NO_LIMIT, T5-87664024-74 played at "Table #3" for USD TC from 2010-10-07 04:08 until 2010-10-07 04:10    
Seat 2: PokerPops_x (9,300 in chips)
Seat 6: supertorbin2 (2,580 in chips)
Seat 7: paksupete (3,760 in chips)
Seat 8: mitsakosss (14,480 in chips)
Seat 9: redsox669 (14,880 in chips)    
ANTES/BLINDS
paksupete posts ante (60), mitsakosss posts ante (60), redsox669 posts ante (60), PokerPops_x posts ante (60), supertorbin2 posts ante (60), paksupete posts small blind (300), mitsakosss posts big blind (600),

PokerPops_x  ac js

PRE-FLOP
redsox669 folds,
PokerPops_x raises to 1,800,
supertorbin2 folds,
paksupete folds,
mitsakosss calls 1,800.

FLOP [board cards:   ]
mitsakosss checks,
PokerPops_x bets 1,800,
mitsakosss calls 1,800.

TURN [board cards: :: ]
mitsakosss checks,
PokerPops_x checks.

RIVER [board cards   :: jd]
mitsakosss bets 6,000, ............

[Marty719]

I open smaller pre to ~1300 - w/ these blinds and stack sizes opening smaller is always good.  Also means u can c/bet slightly smaller and not risk as many chips. 

I def check back/give up turn.

We have no info on villain.  Without into, river is a super snap fold.  Struggling to find a hand we beat and cannot see much air in his range.  Doubt he bets 88-1010 on river as it has sdv.  I guess he can have hands like Ah4x that he turned into a bluff, but once u check back turn it doesnt look like he needs to.

so yea...fold

[WYoung83]

 Only hand u are beating is kj with the k of hearts, but this is too creative because for that to happen, he would of had to float oop with this, and was planning on making a move on turn, then picked up a little somthing, and decided to opt for caution. But his 6 k river bet looks to big to be a blocker.

easy fold here i thnk.

[AMRN]

hardly ever ahead here. easy fold.

preflop bet size is a little spewy

[noble1]

whats the buy in David? no reads? have u seen him play any hand upto now, non showdown as well as showdown..
it smells of bluff, if u had any sort of inkling that villain attacked weakness i would call [as played]...as marty suspects villain could well have air or turned a weaker hand into a bluff , hmmm...
your 3x raise pre given your stack size doesnt leave much room to cbet so check behind on the flop and try to get to a showdown or hit...
shove pre is the best option with the shorties behind plus blinds/antes , the bigger stack will only call 10% ish of the time at most..

agree with others if raising then its 2x to 2.5x at most..

[Marty719]

it smells of bluff, if u had any sort of inkling that villain attacked weakness i would call [as played]...as marty suspects villain could well have air or turned a weaker hand into a bluff , hmmm...

fwiw - i dnt think he "could well have air or turned a weaker hand into a bluff," and I think calling is very very bad here without info that:

a) he is capable of floating w/ air
b) he is capable of turning weak hands into a bluff

Even with both those facts, I still fold most of the time, as after we check turn, most of villains range will have sdv against ours.  Its not like villain thinks the J is a scare card.  I also dnt think villain bets 6k into 7800 for value w/ anything worse than a set.

[pokerpops]

This is a $5 30 man on bf - not my normal game but I thought I"d have a whirl at a few.

No real reads on villain


I"m always interested in the concept of PF raises in tournaments and I guess that the consensus these days is 2.4/2.5x?

I"ll adjust

[noble1]

which is why i asked if David had any sort of read because tbh if i was in villains seat this is the sort of stunt i"d pull when playing lowish buy ins against players playing in a weak manner, if i had any sort of read that he checks a lot of his air range/ over cards etc after cbetting then i"m firing out on this scary board , do u think if most randoms checked the turn would they fold 50% of the time on the river??

yep in the play it solid world, i agree fold..

[Marty719]

which is why i asked if David had any sort of read because tbh if i was in villains seat this is the sort of stunt i"d pull when playing lowish buy ins against players playing in a weak manner, if i had any sort of read that he checks a lot of his air range/ over cards etc after cbetting then i"m firing out on this scary board , do u think if most randoms checked the turn would they fold 50% of the time on the river??

yep in the play it solid world, i agree fold..

i think bet-sizing w/ air on river is usually different usually than 6k into 7800-- w/ given stack sizes.  

[noble1]

exactly why i get alot of folds then

[pokerpops]

fwiw I called - it was a mental coin flip but with an edge towards calling because the bet size looked all wrong

he had  ks tc  

given the comments here I might adjust that decision a little towards folding in future. I do so love to make the hero call, but it can be expensive

[AMRN]

I"m always interested in the concept of PF raises in tournaments and I guess that the consensus these days is 2.4/2.5x?

There"s an interesting bit of text on this in the current WPT Mag - see the Stuart Rutter article on stack sizes in the strategy section.

10 years ago, 4x or even 5x raises were the norm.... then two years 3x was the standard.... now with all the 3 and 4 betting on almost every hand, the smallest possible raise is best. You don"t want a situation where the pot is so bloated when the flop is dealt that a reasonable c-bet costs you a significant chunk.... keeping your raises smaller preflop allows for cheaper play post flop, whilst usually achieving the same goal.

[George2Loose]

The sicko regs now min raise pre

[bigredders]

fwiw I called - it was a mental coin flip but with an edge towards calling because the bet size looked all wrong

he had  ks tc  

given the comments here I might adjust that decision a little towards folding in future. I do so love to make the hero call, but it can be expensive

Dont let the fact that you won the hand here makes you correct..... there is just so much that beats you in this hand and lets face it, its for your tournament. Hero calls are great, but are a) very rarely right and  b) a lot easier live when you have visable reads as well as betting patterns.

As far as the betsizing is concerned i agree with everyone that it was too spewy. I prefer the Chris Fergerson method personally inbetween 2 and 3x the blinds but slightly more the earlier in position you get. That way you don"t giveaway and pre-flop info.

[George2Loose]

Before you pat yourself on the back too much think villian is unlucky you hit a jack. If the board pairs would u make the call with Ace high?