Do we call?

[WYoung83]

 When-ever i seem to play one of the regular tournys at DTD recently, people seem to be opening for as high as 5x, Granted these are the smaller buy in donk fests, and full of really weird plays.

But i have been waching jason Mercier and Jovial Gent play recently online during the wcoop in the NL evnts. These are the 2 best online tourny playes in the world IMO. And every single time that they open, its for a min raise, even when there is antes to factor in also. (as long as they have chips behind to play post flop).

I think its because they are so comfortable at playing after the flop, they dont mind beign oop to a falt caller behind, and they dont mind the BB defending. Also when they get 3 bet, the pot is actually a little smaller because of the tiny opening raise.

[WYoung83]

 Regarding your call, David. It was not a call i would of made, the villain got creative and was trying to rep a flush or straight, and it looked like he had it tbh.  If i were him, i would be mad at myself for trying to rep against a station.  

[Fatcatstu]

pretty much what everyone else said dad.

not sure i can make the call on the river, but as mentioned would need more info on said villain.

as george said, you DID get lucky...

[noble1]

This is a $5 30 man on bf - not my normal game but I thought I"d have a whirl at a few.

No real reads on villain


I"m always interested in the concept of PF raises in tournaments and I guess that the consensus these days is 2.4/2.5x?

I"ll adjust

Until you are comfortable playing post flop then 2.5x rather than 2x , stick with your gut , if something doesn"t add up or that little voice in your head screams ""bullsh#t"" he is bluffing then go with your gut imho...
As long as you recognise when your inner voice is wrong more often than right then you can go about ways of rectifying it... Keep as focused as you can and try to follow bet patterns, how do villains play big hands and likewise pay as much attention to non showdown hands and try to fill in the blanks, its tough at first but slowly everything comes together and that little voice in the head is right more times than wrong...

[pokerpops]

Before you pat yourself on the back too much think villian is unlucky you hit a jack. If the board pairs would u make the call with Ace high?

george, I know what you mean, but I really wasn"t congratulating myself - I think these calls are a leak for me.

Not sure how unlucky the villain is though. He was only winning if he hit a K or a 10 or bet me off it. How would the debate on this hand have gone if it had been posted from his PoV?

Would I call on a paired board with A high? Probably not, but me being lucky with the river card isn"t necessarily the same as him being unlucky it was a J imo


Two things gained here - the reminder about bet-sizing PF and another about hero calls

[George2Loose]

Think the point Im trying to make is that if your gut tells you hes bluffing you should be able to make the call with A high. however I think ur deep level analysis was "I hit a jack, I have AJ, I call"

Not trying to sound patronising or critical just that I dont think youve actually analyised or thought about what villian could have in this spot.

[Marty719]

AJ=A6?

Dnt think AJ=AK

[Swinebag]

5 handed, is this a shove pre?

[JStarkey]

5 handed, is this a shove pre?

15bbs deep, 5 handed, yes all day long. Shove pre.

[noble1]

george, I know what you mean, but I really wasn"t congratulating myself - I think these calls are a leak for me.

Not sure how unlucky the villain is though. He was only winning if he hit a K or a 10 or bet me off it. How would the debate on this hand have gone if it had been posted from his PoV?

some fundamentals for 5th street that i loosely follow

1 You can only make money on the river by getting better hands to fold or worse ones to call..
2 Only value bet the river if you believe a worse hand will call..
3 If bluffing the river then only do it if you believe a better hand will fold..
4 Sometimes it is better to check if you believe it will induce a bluff or worse hands to bet..
5 Be careful of betting if you are going to be unsure of what to do if re-raised..
6 Try to apply a bit of logic and reasoning when/if faced with a tricky river decision, be it should i bet or should i call, re-raise or fold...

These fundamentals apply to heads up, when in multi-way pots then a tad more caution is needed as now we need to beat 2 or more hands..
Pretty sure if i have missed something or a fellow APATer has a different take then please add to thread...

Ok David to get you thinking i"ll add some more thoughts to the above points..

Points 1,2 and 3 are pretty much connected to your hand/situation, what does villain check call flop, check turn then bet the river putting you to the decision for the rest of chips with when you have checked the turn showing weakness?
Does it look like he wants a call or a fold? Ok sometimes at a $5 buy in you get some plonker who can turn some sort of showdownable hand into a bluff, but i tend to see them check call or bet fold [not applicable here ]
Why no check to possibly induce? What the hell is he trying to rep that he hopes you call? if he had a flush draw on the flop given the stack sizes, why did he not check raise? same applies to an overpair and sets? if he has a deuce or a seven why has he bet so much given your action on the turn that he hopes you call? why did he check the turn?
What does you leaving roughly 10bb behind after cbetting the flop and checking the turn look like to him?
This is best as i can in writing explain how i"d be breaking down this hand as it played out, hence i replied call to your post, putting villain on point 3...

thats my thoughts on it anyhoooos...

[Marty719]

The problem is noble, we can only beat random floats which do not occur a lot at this level. We have to assume villain is capable of floating or turning hands w/sdv into a bluff. Most r not at this level. Calling here without reads is bad.

[George2Loose]

The problem is noble, we can only beat random floats which do not occur a lot at this level. We have to assume villain is capable of floating or turning hands w/sdv into a bluff. Most r not at this level. Calling here without reads is bad.

This is very true. And his sizing tells me that he probably does now what he"s doing because he"s polarizing his range with his bet size. I would fold this quite quickly in real time

[WYoung83]

George2nitty, Folding 2 pair in the wcoop, and now folding top top, gonna have to change your name.....

No this is defently a fold, How can calling here ever be +EV in the long run?? Even with Nobles breakdown analysis, im still strugling to find a call .

[deanp27]

its all a bit meh with 15bbs really. sure there is a postflop discussion to be had, but i think how we start a hand with these stack sizes is probably more important.

not sure what the payouts are in a 30 man SNG/MTT but surely will also be a factor, especially if it is the bubble.we have two shorter stacks and some similar stacks.

In a vaccuum and as played it is probably a fold but i just don"t think i could do it as there are so many donks in these comps who just mash buttons. I may even be tempted to check back the flop as our hand is good here a high % of the time but can"t really take any heat if we bet.

However how important do we think preflop is with 15bbs and AJ?
In a normal MTT we shouldn"t be raise/folding anything pre with our stack size,  we would usually keep our raises small to induce light resteals and to keep stealing cheap etc, but in this format of comp i think i would just prefer to jam or fold pre, i think this is more of a SNG conundrum than one in need of genuine MTT strat.