Are we being a bit unfair about Grosvenor?

[MAF]

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I was thinking about the complaints people are making about the Grosvenor, such as lack of dealers, disorganization, confusion over pre-registration, etc.

These matters are frustating, yet think about it, we are only playing in a piddly £20 tournament with no juice (unless APAT are paying the tournament fees separately).  For this we are expecting them to have on hand dealers for 9 or 10 tables (when they could be dealing on the cash games where they get a sizeable rake), a tournament director and a fully updated scoreboard. 

The APAT events are also new to them, and we"re expecting all the staff to know about the tournaments and how they work.  I"m sure over time, they will be better organised, but I get the feeling that maybe we are asking for too much from our rather cheap entry fee.

Just a thought.

[The_rookie]

your right

[WarBwastardo]

I think the source of players" frustrations stem from the fact that these games are ALL supposed to be dealer dealt and provide food, that"s where the value comes from and why people who aren"t local to these casino"s have tended to travel to play in them. 

You"re right, it is only a piddly £20 game and if APAT had said from the get go that they would not be dealer dealt and you"d have to bring sandwiches, I don"t think any would would mind.  But the fact is, players were promised these things so when you don"t get them, there"s a legitimate cause for having a little whinge isn"t there?  Or at least to highlight constructively and non-whingingly that things aren"t as they should be.


From the APAT site:

"The events, which are all registration free, will take place at 14 of the most luxurious casinos in the United Kingdom and Ireland. All events will be dealer dealt and a free buffet will also be provided for players."

[baldaceguy]

i played at grt yarmouth dealers and food provided.good day had by all.

[asarge]

i can see both sides of the argument here.

on one side ur right its not really worth grovensors while when theres no juice.

on the other hand  do think they make a great effort, even when we dont get food.

i think things are getting better everytime around tho!!

[Paulie_D]

I think the source of players" frustrations stem from the fact that these games are ALL supposed to be dealer dealt and provide food, that"s where the value comes from and why people who aren"t local to these casino"s have tended to travel to play in them. 

You"re right, it is only a piddly £20 game and if APAT had said from the get go that they would not be dealer dealt and you"d have to bring sandwiches, I don"t think any would would mind.  But the fact is, players were promised these things so when you don"t get them, there"s a legitimate cause for having a little whinge isn"t there?  Or at least to highlight constructively and non-whingingly that things aren"t as they should be.

From the APAT site:

"The events, which are all registration free, will take place at 14 of the most luxurious casinos in the United Kingdom and Ireland. All events will be dealer dealt and a free buffet will also be provided for players."

If the APAT site still says that (I haven"t checked but I"d guess you are right) then it needs updating. Tighty?

Although it wasn"t broadcast widely, there WAS a reference in the Ready Reckoner to the Grosvenor estate as a whole being under something of a number crunch and that dealers probably wouldn"t be available.

So, APAT had the choice, scrap the whole thing or play on. In my view, it still makes sense to continue on with a vig free tourney even if I have to deal every 10 minutes....and, of course, the Nationals ARE all dealer-dealt!

Yes, things have changed but look at all that you get for your free  membership! If you think it"s really that bad then, as my Dad used to say.."you can do the other thing".

[Jon MW]

I think the source of players" frustrations stem from the fact that these games are ALL supposed to be dealer dealt and provide food, that"s where the value comes from and why people who aren"t local to these casino"s have tended to travel to play in them. 

You"re right, it is only a piddly £20 game and if APAT had said from the get go that they would not be dealer dealt and you"d have to bring sandwiches, I don"t think any would would mind.  But the fact is, players were promised these things so when you don"t get them, there"s a legitimate cause for having a little whinge isn"t there?  Or at least to highlight constructively and non-whingingly that things aren"t as they should be.

From the APAT site:

"The events, which are all registration free, will take place at 14 of the most luxurious casinos in the United Kingdom and Ireland. All events will be dealer dealt and a free buffet will also be provided for players."

If the APAT site still says that (I haven"t checked but I"d guess you are right) then it needs updating. Tighty?

Although it wasn"t broadcast widely, there WAS a reference in the Ready Reckoner to the Grosvenor estate as a whole being under something of a number crunch and that dealers probably wouldn"t be available.

So, APAT had the choice, scrap the whole thing or play on. In my view, it still makes sense to continue on with a vig free tourney even if I have to deal every 10 minutes....and, of course, the Nationals ARE all dealer-dealt!

Yes, things have changed but look at all that you get for your free  membership! If you think it"s really that bad then, as my Dad used to say.."you can do the other thing".

Even with these glitches it is still obvious that overall the Bluesquare/Grosvenor sponsorship is a massive boon and a huge advantage to APAT, and we are of course hugely grateful for their support - but they shouldn"t promise what they can"t deliver then we wouldn"t have to complain about it when it doesn"t happen.

But obviously the bigger picture is looking completely on track and everything"s rosy - it is a huge credit to all parties that it is only the fine details which have gone awry and there haven"t been any major problems anywhere.

[Bodddders]

My opinion is this.

Grosvenor have a sponsorship deal with Apat.  This deal was agreed upon after months of negotiations. Part of this deal was the regional events would be dealer dealt and food(buffet) provided.
As we all know this hasn"t happened at all the venues, although some have managed it. If you have an agreement you should try your best to honour it. So the question I would ask is, have Grosvenor done their best?
My belief is if I go to a casino I want the game to be dealer delt, otherwise I might as well organise a home game.

Apat have sent out intructions, in advance, to all the Casinos with regard to these events, yet you phone to book your seat and get replies varying from, never heard of Apat - no you cant prebook by phone - the tournie has been cancelled.
There seems to be a cummunication problem within Grosvenor and I"m sure all parties are working to improve this.

I know we don"t pay a juice for these events but there must be over 500 people playing  these regionals, most of which would not be in the casino if it wasn"t for Apat. I wonder how much on average we spend in the casino while we"re there. I for one spent about £40 last weekend on food, drink and roulette (I know I shouldn"t). I think Grosvenor do ok out of us Apat"ers.

These are still early days and I think we need to prove to Grosvenor (and the rest of the gaming industry) that Apat is worth keeping (getting hold of) if we are to secure future sponsorship and change things for the better. Therefore we should try and continue to be positive and support everyone involved as they strive to make poker better for all of us.

Blimey that went on a bit, sorry.

[WarBwastardo]

Perhaps people will now "do the other thing."  I don"t think anyone is disputing all the delicious things you get for a free APAT memberships, it"s a great association and I"m shoooowa everyone enjoys being a part of it, ..just that what was promised and agreed upon has not been delivered as far as regional games are concerned.

If you booked a hotel room for £20 which promised a king sized bed, jacuzzi, free mini-bar, 24 hour room service and healthy selection of adult culture motion pictures, but when you got there you found yourself in a perfectly reasonable single room with a shower and a radio, which would still be good value for £20, you"re still entitled to feel a little let down.  Nothing to lose sleep over, but you"d surely entitled to highlight these inconsistencies without being told to go to some other hotel if you don"t like it sir.

[APAT]

Perhaps people will now "do the other thing."  I don"t think anyone is disputing all the delicious things you get for a free APAT memberships, it"s a great association and I"m shoooowa everyone enjoys being a part of it, ..just that what was promised and agreed upon has not been delivered as far as regional games are concerned.

If you booked a hotel room for £20 which promised a king sized bed, jacuzzi, free mini-bar, 24 hour room service and healthy selection of adult culture motion pictures, but when you got there you found yourself in a perfectly reasonable single room with a shower and a radio, which would still be good value for £20, you"re still entitled to feel a little let down.  Nothing to lose sleep over, but you"d surely entitled to highlight these inconsistencies without being told to go to some other hotel if you don"t like it sir.

This £20 hotel room....it wouldn"t happen to be in Manchester would it?!?

[Philippos13]

what does the APAT have to say about the whole matter?

Are the games supposed to be dealer dealt as it states in the site?

Perhaps this is the case but if the casino will not abide with what they agreed can the APAT really do somethin about it?

APAT speak up    

[WarBwastardo]

Amsterdam and Bangkok I"m afraid

[APAT]

Attempted joking aside, we very much are where we are.

I very much agree that the key thing here is giving the members clarity on what they will receive for their day out at an APAT Regional.  I will hold my hands up to missing that copy on the main site, but it will be updated to reflect the current reality.  As individuals, we can then each reach a decision as to whether we want to attend the Regionals or not.

One thing is certain, to gain the maximum long term benefit for all parties, there has to be a bit of give and take on each side, particularly in the early days.  We may complain (me included) from time to time, but Grosvenor and Gala have both given a great deal to APAT and our members and the long term potential in these relationships is huge.  So we will continue to negotiate in a sensible grown up way, taking factors like the economic climate into consideration in our dealings with the chains.

[Shy Talk]

My "home" casino is the Grosvenor at Bolton.The only time they have dealers in a tournament is final table, so I"m used to self-deal and would have no problem if that"s the way it goes.

I do however agree with the "if it"s advertised it should be there"

The Walsall event was the first APAT tourney I"ve been to and I would have to say I thought it was superbly organised. I"m looking forward to Manchester (with or without dealers!!)

[kinboshi]

The plan was originally to have dealers.  But that"s not the case now. 

So for this season, it"s self-deal until the final two tables.

APAT has announced this, and we know it"s the case, so we go with it - or we can vote with our feet.  I for one will be playing.  I also enjoyed the Walsall event and am looking forward to the next one.