Critics: Anything I did wrong please?

[kinboshi]

Where are you when the flop comes Axx? Winning against a big pair or crushed by AK/AQ?

The very tight player will play his hand face up.  If he"s uber-tight, is he going to be raising from EP with AQ?

[kinboshi]

as soon as you have pegged him as a very tight player who happens to have the only stack at the table that can hurt you, why on earth do you want to get involved with a marginal raggy ace?

Insta-fold preflop!

To give you the opportunity to stack him, an opportunity that is less likely with a loose player.

but that"s only going to happen on a perfect flop - so you"re advocating calling with ATdd to try and hit a flush or straight, or some weird 2pair or trips hand......  surely a better hand to do that with would be something like 56s.... this hand is in danger of hitting the flop sideways and costing you a bunch of chips

Hit the flop "sideways" and you don"t lose a bunch of chips.  You don"t fall in love with the hand if you hit top pair.

With 56s I probably play it the same way as ATs.

[Marty719]

as soon as you have pegged him as a very tight player who happens to have the only stack at the table that can hurt you, why on earth do you want to get involved with a marginal raggy ace?

Insta-fold preflop!

To give you the opportunity to stack him, an opportunity that is less likely with a loose player.

but that"s only going to happen on a perfect flop - so you"re advocating calling with ATdd to try and hit a flush or straight, or some weird 2pair or trips hand......  surely a better hand to do that with would be something like 56s.... this hand is in danger of hitting the flop sideways and costing you a bunch of chips

Hit the flop "sideways" and you don"t lose a bunch of chips.  You don"t fall in love with the hand if you hit top pair.

With 56s I probably play it the same way as ATs.

with 56s ur hand is less likely to be dominated, and we are not going broke w/ 1 pair.

[kinboshi]

I def think 3b is way better than flat kin.  Firstly, we can win the pot there and then.  If we get 4bet we have a very easy lay down.  If we get flatted then at least we have the betting lead so will win on most flops.  It saves us calling off in dominated spots.

The caveat to my post was the the player is indeed tight, and is opening from EP.  If that"s the case, what do you put him on?  What percentage of the time is he going to 4-bet us?  I think it"s too high. 

If he calls, you want to be leading out on missed flop?  He raised to 800 - what you planning on 3-betting to?  He then calls and you have to put in fairish bet on the flop if you"re going to lead out.  Too spewy by far for me.

I cant see many pro"s to flatting, while 3b"n gives us a chance at winning the pot.  How strong does our hand look 3b"n a "very tight player" from the sb!

We can win the pot there an then with ATC, assuming he doesn"t have a monster hand.  However, like I said - if we"re assuming he"s a very tight player and has opened from EP then it"s fair to assume he does indeed have a monster hand.

I don"t want to risk a fairly large chunk of chips trying to take down a relatively small pot when for far fewer chips I get a chance to take a lot of chips from a well-stacked player who will be playing his hand pretty much face up post flop.

[kinboshi]

as soon as you have pegged him as a very tight player who happens to have the only stack at the table that can hurt you, why on earth do you want to get involved with a marginal raggy ace?

Insta-fold preflop!

To give you the opportunity to stack him, an opportunity that is less likely with a loose player.

but that"s only going to happen on a perfect flop - so you"re advocating calling with ATdd to try and hit a flush or straight, or some weird 2pair or trips hand......  surely a better hand to do that with would be something like 56s.... this hand is in danger of hitting the flop sideways and costing you a bunch of chips

Hit the flop "sideways" and you don"t lose a bunch of chips.  You don"t fall in love with the hand if you hit top pair.

With 56s I probably play it the same way as ATs.

with 56s ur hand is less likely to be dominated, and we are not going broke w/ 1 pair.

Yes, if you"re going to go broke with one pair here - deffo fold.

Oh, and please play on my table.

[Marty719]

any time sir...literally any time!

my 3b size tends to be 1900 if he makes it 800.  That also controls our cbet size.  What do u think his 4bet range is?  What do you think his opening range?  If you think both are similar then why do you ever think flatting>>folding???  I think a lot of people can be camped in the, "my cards look nice so I will call and see what happens with no real plans" camp.  

[TheSnapper]

Marty, Gareth & Steve, are you guys seriously folding ATs, 60 bb"s deep, to a preflop minraise?

I def think 3b is way better than flat kin.  Firstly, we can win the pot there and then.  If we get 4bet we have a very easy lay down.  If we get flatted then at least we have the betting lead so will win on most flops.  It saves us calling off in dominated spots.

I cant see many pro"s to flatting, while 3b"n gives us a chance at winning the pot.  How strong does our hand look 3b"n a "very tight player" from the sb!

Kinboshi has asked previously and I don"t see an answer to the question but, the raisers position is uber important. I especially think the 3bet option is heavily dependent on the raisers position. We should also know and take into account the villains tendancies, is he positionally aware? is the min raise his standard PF betsize? If not, has he min bet before and with what?

[Marty719]

Marty, Gareth & Steve, are you guys seriously folding ATs, 60 bb"s deep, to a preflop minraise?

Cnt speak for the others but I"m pretty much 3bn or folding my entire range from the sb.

[AMRN]

Marty, Gareth & Steve, are you guys seriously folding ATs, 60 bb"s deep, to a preflop minraise?

Against a player who has been read as super tight, couple with my being out of position, yes I might fold ATs preflop.  But there are a number of other factors that would contribute to the making of that decision..... the guy"s position at the table, the BB"s tendencies, etc.  But I doubt I would ever flat with ATs in this spot - 3b or fold..... but if I 3b, I"m always folding to a 4b here.

[GarethC]

My point was that he may not play his cards "face up" post flop and we may not be able to play "perfect poker" as kinboshi suggested.

[kinboshi]

[TheSnapper]

Marty, Gareth & Steve, are you guys seriously folding ATs, 60 bb"s deep, to a preflop minraise?

Against a player who has been read as super tight, couple with my being out of position, yes I might fold ATs preflop.  But there are a number of other factors that would contribute to the making of that decision..... the guy"s position at the table, the BB"s tendencies, etc.  But I doubt I would ever flat with ATs in this spot - 3b or fold..... but if I 3b, I"m always folding to a 4b here.

We haven"t established the guy"s position or tendancies so can"t really assign a range of hands to him, can we make a good decision without this info?

[AMRN]

Marty, Gareth & Steve, are you guys seriously folding ATs, 60 bb"s deep, to a preflop minraise?

Against a player who has been read as super tight, couple with my being out of position, yes I might fold ATs preflop.  But there are a number of other factors that would contribute to the making of that decision..... the guy"s position at the table, the BB"s tendencies, etc.  But I doubt I would ever flat with ATs in this spot - 3b or fold..... but if I 3b, I"m always folding to a 4b here.

We haven"t established the guy"s position or tendancies so can"t really assign a range of hands to him, can we make a good decision without this info?

clearly not, but to answer your original question, yes seriously, I may fold here

[TheSnapper]

clearly not, but to answer your original question, yes seriously, I may fold here

"I may fold" is reasonable, at the very least it does suggest a viable alternative.

as soon as you have pegged him as a very tight player who happens to have the only stack at the table that can hurt you, why on earth do you want to get involved with a marginal raggy ace?

Insta-fold preflop!

"Insta-fold preflop!", on the other hand.......

[AMRN]

clearly not, but to answer your original question, yes seriously, I may fold here

"I may fold" is reasonable, at the very least it does suggest a viable alternative.

as soon as you have pegged him as a very tight player who happens to have the only stack at the table that can hurt you, why on earth do you want to get involved with a marginal raggy ace?

Insta-fold preflop!

"Insta-fold preflop!", on the other hand.......

yeah yeah yeah, picky bugger