good play?

[shozboy1]

Hi, was wondering what people thought of the below hand? I repopped this guy "wading"s" button raise. He raises 60% of his buttons when folded to.
Was this overly aggressive? The game is full ring 0.25-0.50. Antes however in this are 0.1 which means there is often lots of action as pots are worth taking down preflop




PokerStars Game #55713706697:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2011/01/11 0:05:07 WET [2011/01/10 19:05:07 ET]
Table "Industria VII" 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: l LadyLuck l ($218.10 in chips)
Seat 2: shozboy ($49.60 in chips)
Seat 3: -shameLi- ($167.50 in chips)
Seat 4: SharingaaN ($44 in chips)
Seat 6: lllFSlll ($138.80 in chips)
Seat 7: vettro ($54.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Boweryboy ($112 in chips)
Seat 9: wading ($130.85 in chips)
l LadyLuck l: posts small blind $0.25
shozboy: posts big blind $0.50
Carlos Loos: sits out
l LadyLuck l: posts the ante $0.10
shozboy: posts the ante $0.10
-shameLi-: posts the ante $0.10
SharingaaN: posts the ante $0.10
lllFSlll: posts the ante $0.10
vettro: posts the ante $0.10
Boweryboy: posts the ante $0.10
wading: posts the ante $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [ ]
-shameLi-: folds
SharingaaN: folds
lllFSlll: folds
vettro: folds
Boweryboy: folds
wading: raises $1.05 to $1.55
l LadyLuck l: folds
shozboy: raises $2.05 to $3.60
wading: calls $2.05
*** FLOP *** [ ]
shozboy: bets $3.95
wading: calls $3.95
*** TURN *** [ ] []
shozboy: checks
wading: bets $9
shozboy: calls $9
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
shozboy: checks
wading: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
shozboy: shows [ ] (a pair of Queens)

[Swinebag]

looks fine to me - though I think you should 3 bet bigger (say $4.50 ish) as your 3 bet pretty much compels the button to call.

rest of the hand seems fine

you won then got dogs abuse??

[noble1]

i"d guess u won and villain has air or he had a flush draw...
i"ll be honest shoz and say i think it is horrible [if its a ""i feel i have to protect moment, rather than i"m doing it for value or image etc""] , its not a mtt, you don"t have to feel that u have to protect your blind,
if u feel like protecting in cash then protect your button, afterall this is the spot we make the most money, not the blinds
3bet a tad bigger pre, u wouldn"t 3bet size pre your top value range like this would u?
the line u take on the turn is a ""it depends on what reads u have and what tendencies villain has""  so without more info its tough to critique without a specific question from yourself...
obvious if someone is stealing alot, then widen that 3bet range, the range i"d do it would depend on how often villain is folding to 3bets, to cbets, reads, what my image is etc etc...

[Marty719]

looks fine to me - though I think you should 3 bet bigger (say $4.50 ish) as your 3 bet pretty much compels the button to call.

rest of the hand seems fine

agree with this...

[GarethC]

I don"t agree that you shouldn"t feel you have to protect your blinds in a cash game, that makes it sound like you"re just giving up with everything but premium hands when someone opens from a steal position. If there"s another option which yields a higher EV than folding all your trash hands, then you should do that, i.e. occasionally 3betting the loose openers.

[noble1]

I don"t agree that you shouldn"t feel you have to protect your blinds in a cash game

obvious if someone is stealing alot, then widen that 3bet range, the range i"d do it would depend on how often villain is folding to 3bets, to cbets, reads, what my image is etc etc...

rest of the hand seems fine

look at board texture, what is your plan if re-raised on the flop or turn?, what is the plan if villain bets the river? [any size 1/2 pot upwards?] when looking at the texture what hand does shoz represent here? oop and no reads except villain steals 60%, nothing about how he plays post-flop or how he plays in position, yet u think it is fine? please explain why u think it is fine? expand and enlighten please.....

[Marty719]

"as played" were the words left out noble - "rest of the hand seems fine as played"

Obv we would like to narrow his range p/f by 3b"n larger (3b"n this small oop with any of ur range is a mistake imo), but once we get to the flop like this I don"t see how we can play it better. 

We bet flop for value. 

Once villain calls, we go for pot-control on the turn and river.  This also allows villain to barrell some of his draws and his random floats.  I can"t see a more profitable turn line.  Think it goes x/c>>>b/f>>>x/r>>>b/c>>>c/f

Without writing an essay with lots of quotes from ppl playing a lot higher than NL50...once we 3b pre, what do u think is a more profitable line for the rest of the hand?

ps - i missed u wen u wer away...

pps - I also think c/c flop is ok to induce.  Pretty close between this and leading imo, esp if villain has aggro flop tendancies.

[Swinebag]

We bet flop for value. 

Once villain calls, we go for pot-control on the turn and river.

That was what I meant

[AMRN]

all good to me, except the 3-bet sizing.... what were you hoping to achieve by 3-betting? With Q6, I think the objective should be to make him fold pre, but you gave the pot odds that pretty much forced him to call with atc.

[Pitchie]

Is there anyone else that thinks raising 60% of button"s isn"t that aggressive?

I just can"t help think that 80% ish is more in the region of an aggressive button. I"m not taking anything away from your play as you assessed he was being aggressive in your opinion and you acted on it accordingly. However, I"m not sure I"d be 3 betting a 60% button with Q6os. I think I"d personally be looking for something that plays a bit better should I get called (Q10s, J10s, KQ, etc).

As the hand plays though, I"d just reiterate what everyone else has said. 3b higher pre. Like the pot control on turn and river with the marginal holding.

Paul.

[WYoung83]

 When its folded to me in cash games i raise about 90% of buttons, and you actually dont mind if they defend.
As for shoz boys hand, it is trash so i either fold or 3 bet, but my 3 bet would be around $4.50-5.50. I also think the
c- bet on flop is rather small, makes it easier for him to float with lots of hands, and its harder to tell weather he has flush draw or air with a smallish cbet.
Turn is the street that is hardest to play imo. I defently wouldnt barallel, but i hate check calling. So thats one reason why i dont win in cash games.

PS. good to see hands on this thread, because its been sooooo dead recently.

[noble1]

meh i"m not a huge fan of pot control oop, lets face it, it is impossible to pot control oop if the villain in position decides to shove over bet the turn for example ..
i think atm that its a line of play that can get you into some really awkward spots because so many players are familiar with the concept. if shoz checked because he had a read that villain tended to bluff the turn when checked to, or villain re-raised ip facing turn bets alot then i"d say its a good option to check call the turn..
i guess what i"m trying to point out is that without reads it is tough to say such and such a line is great, a 3barrel bluff could well be the most profitable line if villain has shown tendencies to fold to multi barrels [assuming shoz had missed the flop]...
where does it say in the poker police manual that we should pot control our medium strength hands? is there any advantages to betting the turn? if villain makes mistakes calling down flush draws if bet into but checks behind if we check, then betting the turn for value is surely the best line? its a pretty dry"ish texture there is plenty of worse hands that can call the turn is there not?
if making as much profit as possible is the goal after hitting our hand, then on this texture i cannot see why betting the turn would not be ok... shoz has the initiative so by betting the turn we may even get some better hands to fold !!!! we can get value from any draws by betting this turn card, if the plan was to check call the turn then why not bet it? keep the initiative going even on the river is an option, if say villain has a pair of jacks or a flush draw, maybe even 45 56 and we had reads that he would never try to bluff the turn or bet the river unimproved then there is another argument for betting the turn !!!!
meh its late[early] and i"m cream cracker"ed , so enough of the random thoughts, what do you reckon?

just another thought if we bet the turn and villain re-raises mostly when he"s strong along with that we had a read that he will not be bluffing alot when he does so, this means we probably weren't going to win anyway... so all we lose is our turn bet, which we would of lost anyway cos we was planning to check call the turn and maybe the river, lol did i explain my thoughts ok there  meh it makes sense to me when i read through it again lol, clear as mud as they say

[JamieCarra]

Not a fan of the 3b.  You definitely have to be restealing vs button opens a decent % of the time but I don"t think Q6s is the right sort of hand to be doing it with,  would much prepare to be bluffing with some of my suited aces / high card combos that have more blockers and can flop better.

Also, 3b size is way too small, I"ll generally just 3b close to full pot when this deep, especially oop.

[Marty719]

Is there anyone else that thinks raising 60% of button"s isn"t that aggressive?

I just can"t help think that 80% ish is more in the region of an aggressive button. I"m not taking anything away from your play as you assessed he was being aggressive in your opinion and you acted on it accordingly. However, I"m not sure I"d be 3 betting a 60% button with Q6os. I think I"d personally be looking for something that plays a bit better should I get called (Q10s, J10s, KQ, etc).

As the hand plays though, I"d just reiterate what everyone else has said. 3b higher pre. Like the pot control on turn and river with the marginal holding.

Paul.

60% isnt the highest raise button stat ever, but it is high enough for us to know villain opens light from this position and we can exploit this by widening our 3b range.

As far as b/f turn, I don"t think its a bad line at all, and think its pretty close between b/f and c/c (esp seeing ppl dnt make many moves with draws on the turn in NLH), but I just lean towards c/c as we allow villain to continue with his floats and fire IP with his draws.  Dnt think either is a mistake in a vacuum tho.

[deanp27]

Not a fan of the 3b.  You definitely have to be restealing vs button opens a decent % of the time but I don"t think Q6s is the right sort of hand to be doing it with,  would much prepare to be bluffing with some of my suited aces / high card combos that have more blockers and can flop better.

Also, 3b size is way too small, I"ll generally just 3b close to full pot when this deep, especially oop.

was just gonna post this, crap hand to 3bet with imo