Player interfering?

[nosey-p]

There was an incident at the weekend and I wonder what people's opinions are.

There was action pre flop, post flop and on the turn, the river still to come. Player A puts a chunk of chips in but does not announce how much, the dealer spreads the chips so the other player can see the amount he also announces the amount but very quietly. Player B says "I have to call" and puts in 1500 chips. The deal says "you have to put the rest in". Player B being confused says "why".

Player's A bet was 15000 but player B miss heard and thought the dealer said 1500. Not liking the dealers ruling he ask for the TD.

I was sat next to the dealer and herd him say 15000 so I told player B this.

My question is if you know the dealer is right do you say so or do you let them sort it out between themselves? And on the flip side if it's you who is asking for a ruling, would you appreciate another player interfering.        

[Chipaccrual]

Interesting.

I was told the story by the player involved, who said the dealer said "fifteen", which he said, for fifteen, I have to call.

Then realised it was 15k, got the ruling and was forced to make the call, as he"d stated he would call.

[nosey-p]

The action is not the question. What I'm trying to say if you know a player is wrong do you say so or do you keep quite and let the dealer or TD sort it out

[duke3016]

No idea, I"m usually asleep.....

[Chipaccrual]

I think you have to speak up, especially if it"s confirming what the dealer has said.

[samuel_9]

I think you have to speak up, especially if it"s confirming what the dealer has said.

correct

[AMRN]

I think it is different between cash and tournament play. In a cash game, it"s up the player to sort himself out, and be sure of the action etc, but any mistakes don"t have a bearing on anyone else at the table..... the difference with tournament play is that any action has a potential knock on effect on the other players at the table, so in my opinion there is no problem speaking up.

Similar situation if the dealer awards the pot to the wrong player having misread the board - and nobody but you notices..... in a tournament game, I believe it is right to ensure the right action occurs and you should point out the mistake.

[ian.ski309]

This question leads me to pose another one (sorry for hijacking you Wayne)... at my original table I was in seat seven and was perfectly happy with it. When they broke our table I went to seat 10. From that position I was so close to the dealer that I couldn"t even SEE the players in seats 1 to 3, let alone see their stack, whether they were in the hand or their bet sizing without standing up.

In that situation, had the dealer announced "Fifteen to call" and I misinterpreted 15,000 for 1,500 I would undoubtedly have been very unhappy with the outcome. The person who designed the shape of poker tables obviously never sat in seats 1 or 10.

[nosey-p]

What about the flip side, if it was you who made the mistake and was trying to get it overturned would you like it if other players was backing up the dealer? This is for your tournament life.


[

[AMRN]

What about the flip side, if it was you who made the mistake and was trying to get it overturned would you like it if other players was backing up the dealer? This is for your tournament life.


[

In a tournament, the best hand should win, the correct action should be enforced, etc etc etc..........   all players have an interest in this happening, so have a right to point out any mistakes.  At the end of the day though, it"s the TD that makes any decision - but that doesn"t mean other players can"t help to outline the facts.

In the "15 to call" issue..... if someone has clearly heard the dealer say "it is fifteen thousand to call", I see no reason why they shouldn"t support the dealer when the debate arises....

On a separate note on that hand though, I think the TD was wrong to enforce the call when it was clear the guy had mis-heard. He wasn"t angle shooting - he mis-heard and threw in chips to make what he thought was a cheap call. In a GUKPT or WSOP event, yes the ruling the TD issued was correct and the full call should be made..... however this is APAT and is by it"s nature an event for less experienced players to enter the fray and leniency and common sense should apply (imo).  I think the 1500 chips that crossed the line should stay, but he should have been allowed to fold and keep the rest of his chips back.

[JamieCarra]

I think it is different between cash and tournament play. In a cash game, it"s up the player to sort himself out, and be sure of the action etc, but any mistakes don"t have a bearing on anyone else at the table..... the difference with tournament play is that any action has a potential knock on effect on the other players at the table, so in my opinion there is no problem speaking up.

You should always speak up if there has been / is about to be a mistake made.  Even if it"s in a cash game it can effect the entire table as at some point afterwards you will in all probability end up in a pot against one of the players who were involved in the ruling and their stacksize at this point will be partly determined by the decision.

Personally I think in this instance common sense should be used.  Assuming the dealer just said 15 (and didn"t specify whether it was hundred or thousand) then the player should easily have been able to work out which was most likely by the size of the pot and previous action, ie if the pot was 20k, then it"s pretty obvious that the bet was going to be 15k and so the player should be forced to make the call.

If there was only around 3k in the middle then it would be reasonable to assume the bet was 1500 so assuming that neither player had exposed their hand yet then I think the caller should be given back the 1500 and given the option to either fold or call the 15k.

[PantsMan]

With regards to speaking up then yes, i believe you should, whether it be backing up the player or the dealer. The TD wasn"t there at the time so can only go on what people say about what went on and the rules.

With regards to whether the call stands i believe it should, whether it be an APAT or any other tournament. It"s down to the player making the call to check if he"s not sure what the amount is. It"s easy to say common sense should apply but who makes the decision and based on what? Different people would have different opinions on what bet size would be reasonable given a certain pot. There are too many factors regarding whether or not a bet seems reasonable and whether someone would call that bet given the relative stack sizesm pot size etc. That"s not a TDs job so imo he was right to enforce the rules and the call stands.

[Chipaccrual]

We had a similar incident in Spain a few weeks back.

One of the Irish lads had folded to an allin after he had initially raised, but it wasn"t very clear that was what he had done, as he insta flipped his pocket nines over and his oppo insta flipped pocket queens.

It was only that Beth MacInnes spoke up and said she heard him say "fold" that the situation got defused.

If she had not said anything, it would have been very difficult for the TD to make a judgement.

[MintTrav]

In a GUKPT or WSOP event, yes the ruling the TD issued was correct and the full call should be made..... however this is APAT

Tends to be the higher the buy-in, the more flexibility & common-sense is applied and the cheaper, the more rigidly rules get enforced.

[AMRN]

In a GUKPT or WSOP event, yes the ruling the TD issued was correct and the full call should be made..... however this is APAT

Tends to be the higher the buy-in, the more flexibility & common-sense is applied and the cheaper, the more rigidly rules get enforced.

It"s a shame as one of the concepts of APAT is to introduce new players to the live environment.... such lack of common sense is more likely to frighten new players away rather than encourage them to come back.