Advice Please

[cgull69]

Its not often a hand gets to me, but I went to bed last night my mind going 6 to the dozen as to whether I should have played this hand any differently?

It is early on in an MTT, blinds are at 15, 30. I have around 2300 in chips. The action is all folded round to the button who raises it to 90

I am the SB and have  ah :as: I re raise to 240, the BB folds and the button calls.

The flop then comes  jc  

I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am, the button flat calls. I am now thinking that the button either has one of the other nines, 10 q or a flush draw.

The turn comes   .

I check and so does the button. I now think that button is definitely on a draw and disregard the fact that they may have the last 9 in the deck.

River comes  ac .

I am now hoping that the button has hit is flush. I bet 500 and the button goes all in , I call and they show   js.

Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

[Marty719]

I raise bigger pre with my entire range when oop.

I bet turn for value.

Im happy getting it in on river.

nh

[MintTrav]

My chips are in a second after his at the end, though I think he is more likely to have a J than a flush. Who is not going to be happy to get them in here, as I think you must know?

One thing I don"t like is:

I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am

I hear this kind of thing all the time, but I don"t get it. I can"t see the benefit. I always bet for a reason, but that reason is never for information.

[Marty719]

***In before Noble says fold***

[Chipaccrual]

***In before Noble says fold***

lol, noble won"t be far away.

[noble1]

nice try , why would i say fold marty?

cgull69 on the turn you thought

I now think that button is definitely on a draw

why? did you have a read? why can"t villain not slow play with Jx or see a free card with QT, pot control an under pair TT, giving up with air maybe,  9x can be in the range...
why bet flop?
why not bet turn?
why bet river? what size should u bet?

[cgull69]

My chips are in a second after his at the end, though I think he is more likely to have a J than a flush. Who is not going to be happy to get them in here, as I think you must know?

One thing I don"t like is:

I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am

I hear this kind of thing all the time, but I don"t get it. I can"t see the benefit. I always bet for a reason, but that reason is never for information.

This is an interesting point, the reason I fired a 1/2 pot bet after the flop is that it gives me the option of geting away from the hand if he re-pops me. Also I do not want to display any sort of weakness. I must add that this game was not a 2 dollar donkfest and that the player I was up against certainly knows the time of day. I am now thinking that I should have bet the pot on the flop to price him out of calling had he been on a draw, but if he were on a draw would he have called anyway as the implied pot odds would have been in his favour.

[Marty719]

nice try , why would i say fold marty?

Cos he lost the hand...

[noble1]

nice try , why would i say fold marty?

Cos he lost the hand...

oh, u think the the result will influence, i see   u see everything std, i get it marty...

I am now thinking that I should have bet the pot on the flop to price him out of calling had he been on a draw

the implied pot odds would have been in his favour

the reason I fired a 1/2 pot bet after the flop is that it gives me the option of geting away from the hand if he re-pops me

i dont like the thought process above, or the thoughts on range on the turn...

[Marty719]

This is an interesting point, the reason I fired a 1/2 pot bet after the flop is that it gives me the option of geting away from the hand if he re-pops me.

By betting 1/2 pot we widen villains flop raising range so b/f"n a J99cc board is a really bad idea.  B/f"n on any connected/suited flops with overpaids and no solid info on villain is an error.

[TheSnapper]

First point and its made too often on here, don"t! post results when posting a hand for advise. It completely alters the discussion.

This is an interesting point, the reason I fired a 1/2 pot bet after the flop is that it gives me the option of geting away from the hand if he re-pops me.

Depending on the player obviously ( just for you Noble your pet subject it seems) firing a half pot flop bet with the intention of folding to a raise is insanely weak, as is always the case, the correct response is very much opponent dependant and folding to a flop raise would be insane versus one guy while versus a guy at the other end of that spectrum calling would be insane. Simply based on the fact that this guy has called a 3 bet with J9o, I"m highly unlikely to fold in this hand.

Also I do not want to display any sort of weakness. I must add that this game was not a 2 dollar donkfest and that the player I was up against certainly knows the time of day. I am now thinking that I should have bet the pot on the flop to price him out of calling had he been on a draw, but if he were on a draw would he have called anyway as the implied pot odds would have been in his favour.

Weakness is exactly what you should be displaying, when they think they"re good they put $$ in bad (see Marty"s inducing point in post #9 ). Half pot / full pot bet or anywhere in between is a moot point here tbh but it could be argued that half pot looks stronger than full pot on this board.

The hand itself is standard and belongs in a bad beats thread tbh but some of your comments suggest that you don"t seem to grasp the why? in all of this and that is the important aspect.......

why bet flop?
why not bet turn?
why bet river? what size should u bet?

[noble1]

Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

there is more in this hand than meets the eye, rather than only question pre-flop cgull69, imho u should be breaking down the flop, the turn and river..
question your thought process throughout, what is the plan etc....

for example question flop texture, dry flops or wet flops which are best to cbet without many reads.. u say the opponent is good, mostly on wet textures a good player will see an opportunity to float or re-raise [especially in postion]
what is the plan now?

another example - when u have the initiative whatever the flop imho one of the key questions flop onwards will be if i bet, will better hands fold, will worse hands call etc what are villains tendencies etc... if the opponent is good then perceived ranges [yours and his] especially so in 3bet pots are important to consider...
what is the plan now?

[Marty719]

u say the opponent is good, mostly on wet textures a good player will see an opportunity to float or re-raise [especially in postion]

I really disagree with this.  I think good players are way more likely to make moves on dry flops.  Id rather raise a c/bet on a K83 rainbow flop than on a 910Jhhh flop.  Villains can continue with a wider range on wet boards which makes bluff-raising less profitable.  On dry boards (like the one given above), villains can only really continue with top pair hands at worst.

Depending on the player obviously ( just for you Noble your pet subject it seems) firing a half pot flop bet with the intention of folding to a raise is insanely weak, as is always the case, the correct response is very much opponent dependant and folding to a flop raise would be insane versus one guy while versus a guy at the other end of that spectrum calling would be insane. Simply based on the fact that this guy has called a 3 bet with J9o, I"m highly unlikely to fold in this hand.

Very much this, but just to add, in a readless situation I am certainly not b/f"n.  It is a very rare occasion/player type we b/f this against and 95%+ of the time we are not folding!!

[noble1]

so u make a move in a 3bet pot on a dry flop? your not repping a lot are u? is that not why in general its considered not good to try and bluff a good opponent.. if the villain cbet lots of flops i can see re-raising on certain dry textures as ok..
on dry flops, since its difficult to be rarely floating extremely light i also like bluff-raising these flops a bit along with raising them with hands like sets, against good opponents this can be tricky to balance though ... hmmm nuts or air that is the question lol lol
please note i said wet texture , this could be 9TJ for example , hence a good player especially with position will be attacking your cbets by calling or re-raising....
position, perceived ranges, player tendencies, range v range, fold equity > pot equity , board texture.... all should be taken into account.....

[cgull69]

Thanks for all the input, there are a few points I have taken on board which will hopefully enhance my game going forward.