REALLY angry, but now I've calmed down.....is this collusion ?

[Shogun112]

Not interested in the player who announced he had 10 10 then Leigh?

[coprey]

I think those involved have realised their mistake and action has been taken. Well done to Leigh for sorting this out so quickly.

[SirPercival]

Not interested in the player who announced he had 10 10 then Leigh?

Have you sent details to Leigh, Carl?

[Shonky]

I agree this is cheating.

I also think we need clarification on the rules as other teams have admitted things on this forum which could also be cheating.

Notts have team members currently refusing to play due to the perceived level of collusion going on. I think clarification is required minimum.

The first week I played a game for Luton, I played my normal stlyle of game, regardless of my opponent.  I was then criticised by one of my own team mates publically on this forum for not playing in the right "team spirit", despite such a concept not being defined within the rules.  It was my belief that not playing my best game would cost me profit in the long run, and I infered at this at the table at that time asking if that player would like to reimburse me for playing in such a manner.  Yes there is added value for winning teams, but its not spread evenly amongst the entire team unlees an agreement is made.... therefore the top players in a team have more of an "angle shooting" advantage in exploiting their own teammates by raising them off a pot in the beleif that as a team mate, they should just fold and give up.

Also, with apps such as skype and messenger.... even facebook chat, it is too easy for team mates to be colluding undetected, and if people don"t think this is going on when there"s money to be made, they are naive. 

I am firmly against any form of collusion or even soft playing, and have expressed my thoughts to my club captain in the past.  If these leagues were freerolls, no-one would care less, and you could have a proper team game and allow team members to play a strategic game against other teams because no one would be out of pocket.

If there are set rules drawn up with regards how team mates should play against one another, then they need to be posted and THEN enforced.  They also need to be realistic in the first place.

[ladman]

I"m not sure if its cheating I"ve often had players blind on blind raise/steal me tell me what they"ve got, I fold and they reveal a completely different hand. Can the chat box not be used as a form of bluff or is that against apat/poker room rules?

[AMRN]

If there are set rules drawn up with regards how team mates should play against one another, then they need to be posted and THEN enforced.  They also need to be realistic in the first place.

How?  Team mate A open shoves a short stack, Team mate B folds AA. Who"s to know? How do you enforce then?

(and fwiw I don"t think folding AA there would be cheating in a team game - if calling damages the team"s chance of winning, then it would be a bad move to call.)

[SirPercival]

If there are set rules drawn up with regards how team mates should play against one another, then they need to be posted and THEN enforced.  They also need to be realistic in the first place.

How?  Team mate A open shoves a short stack, Team mate B folds AA. Who"s to know? How do you enforce then?

(and fwiw I don"t think folding AA there would be cheating in a team game - if calling damages the team"s chance of winning, then it would be a bad move to call.)

Poker companies and their auditors can use forensic accounting software to detect anomalies in play, do we really need to get to that point with an APAT $10 game?

and with all respect Steve your interpretation of what is and isn"t cheating is not the one we should be going with. Nor is whether or not I agree or disagree with you. We should respect the APAT rules.

[Shogun112]

Not interested in the player who announced he had 10 10 then Leigh?

Have you sent details to Leigh, Carl?

Will do if requested.

[Shonky]

If there are set rules drawn up with regards how team mates should play against one another, then they need to be posted and THEN enforced.  They also need to be realistic in the first place.

How?  Team mate A open shoves a short stack, Team mate B folds AA. Who"s to know? How do you enforce then?

show all cards after hand finishes?

[Chipaccrual]

I think I also saw someone on a table announce he had 10 10...  Similar circumstances but not entirely sure..  wrong though..!!  Regardless if it is blind on blind, same team mate, its wrong.  Next thing is, same people will be doing it 3 or 4 seats away from each other..

Carl,

If you think there are grounds for reviewing this accusation, then let me know the details.  Players involved, how the action went, table number etc.

Any suggestions of collusion will be dealt with properly by APAT, but let"s remember the ramifications of making such accusations against fellow APATers.

If I looked into every flippant remark that is posted on this forum regarding peoples play, I"d have a full time job with a small team of analysts. 

These are serious matters that I hope everyone will treat seriously.


Leigh

[AMRN]

If there are set rules drawn up with regards how team mates should play against one another, then they need to be posted and THEN enforced.  They also need to be realistic in the first place.

How?  Team mate A open shoves a short stack, Team mate B folds AA. Who"s to know? How do you enforce then?

(and fwiw I don"t think folding AA there would be cheating in a team game - if calling damages the team"s chance of winning, then it would be a bad move to call.)

Poker companies and their auditors can use forensic accounting software to detect anomalies in play, do we really need to get to that point with an APAT $10 game?

and with all respect Steve your interpretation of what is and isn"t cheating is not the one we should be going with. Nor is whether or not I agree or disagree with you. We should respect the APAT rules.

Stu - you"ve missed my point. I was responding to a post that said rules need to be set and enforced - I was merely questioning how they could be enforced when someone with a hidden hand folds when he should really call.

OK, so to take the example further, Team Mate A shoves a short stack of say <5xBB, and team mate B with a massive stack folds in the BB whilst holding a better than average hand.... normal MTT play dictates that this is an auto call, but if he folds, he has effectively soft played, and therefore according to the opinion of some on here (and possibly rule 15), has cheated. How would it be possible to "enforce" a ruling here - nobody knows that the BB had a better then average hand, and the client software isn"t going to pick up any anomalous play...... so, to respond again to the post to which I replied - rules likes this cannot be enforced.

Any rule that cannot be enforced is a non-rule.

The fact that this is an APAT $10 game is irrelevant. People are shouting loud about obeying rules - any rules needs to be practical, reasonable, and enforcable, otherwise what"s the point of the rule.

To your final point, I have my own opinion about whether soft play (as per example in this response) is cheating in a team game.... I don"t think I ever suggested that my interpretation should be the one that APAT goes with - surely I"m allowed to express my opinion on an open chat forum? Or is that against the rules as well now???

Leigh will come up with a suitable solution here - he always does. That doesn"t mean we can"t discuss and share opinions though.

[AMRN]

If there are set rules drawn up with regards how team mates should play against one another, then they need to be posted and THEN enforced.  They also need to be realistic in the first place.

How?  Team mate A open shoves a short stack, Team mate B folds AA. Who"s to know? How do you enforce then?

show all cards after hand finishes?

but the BB has folded his hand. you would have to show every hand at the table. really necessary?

[Chipaccrual]

And one final point on last night.


From a personal point of view, I really didn"t enjoy having to deal with what in my opinion was a "mistake" by a fellow APATer.

Both Mark (Chip) and Sunderland Captain Al were honest and upfront about what happened, and have both respected it was wrong and the decision APAT made.  I appreciate your position on this guys, take it on the chin and move on.  Top gents.

I never like to hear players being called "cheats" and accusations flying around in what is a fun, yet competitive community game.

We"ve been running these for three years now, and this is the first, and I hope only time we have had to take action regarding collusion.  And I would like to be clear here, I am convinced this was collusion in a banterish way, rather than looking to game any advantage, or anyone elses chips for that matter.

Let"s not go down a slippery slop, but ultimately, that is down to you the players.

[Des]

Well said Leigh.

[Shogun112]

I think I also saw someone on a table announce he had 10 10...  Similar circumstances but not entirely sure..  wrong though..!!  Regardless if it is blind on blind, same team mate, its wrong.  Next thing is, same people will be doing it 3 or 4 seats away from each other..

Carl,

If you think there are grounds for reviewing this accusation, then let me know the details.  Players involved, how the action went, table number etc.

Based on what happened with this hand in this thread, the person who announced his cards to whoever was left in the hand did the very same things as got punished, so, Yes,  I do think there are grounds.  But, can I give you the table number and players involved one day later, no.  All I can say is, I was out of the tournament and I was railing a team mate, Destroyer316, and saw it happen.  I never commented in the chat at the time but do remember thinking, wow, you can"t do that.!!