APAT showdown rules ?

[Robbiebox]

I meant to ask this after Coventry this year. But I couldn"t find anything about them in the rules section.

Mainly:

Who is first to show? Is it last aggressive action in any round or just last agressive action on the river ?

If a player mucks, rather than showdown can anyone (or just players in hand) ask to see the cards ? Or is this supposed to be only in the event of protecting the integrity of the game ?

If the first player to act mucks, can the other player claim the pot without showdown ?

I am quite surprised that APAT rules dont cover this considering the nittiness of so many  

[Paulie_D]

In general, most players would expect the last aggressive betting action to determine who shows first.

As for seeing mucked hands... I doubt it"s actually come up...Oh, it"s been discussed,,,,but in practise, it"s a non-issue.

Open mucking is just silly and I wouldn"t expect any APAT player to do it...but yes.

Frankly, APAT doesn"t need to have specific rules covering every situation as we just get on with it and play the game.

[RioRodent]

I really don"t understand why some people get so hung up on this... if you think ypou"ve got the best hand just turn it over, if no one turns over a better one take the pot and move on.

I suspect that you may get different answers dependant on where the game is played, since the dealers will do what they usually do. And I really hope that no one would be so pedantic as to call the "the floor" for a ruling on this!

That said, I think the following is how it usually is -

I meant to ask this after Coventry this year. But I couldn"t find anything about them in the rules section.

Mainly:

Who is first to show? Is it last aggressive action in any round or just last agressive action on the river ?

The last person to bet or raise on the river.. If checked around, then the person in earliest position i.e. closest on dealers left.

If a player mucks, rather than showdown can anyone (or just players in hand) ask to see the cards ? Or is this supposed to be only in the event of protecting the integrity of the game ?

Anyone at the table can ask to see any hand that goes to showdown. But yes, the rule is there to protect against collusion, it is not so that you can ask to see someone"s hand to gain oinformation.

If the first player to act mucks, can the other player claim the pot without showdown ?

I think most places now have a rule that you have to show both cards to claim a pot at showdown, regardless of what anyone else does.

[TightEnd]

Rio Rodent has given the model answer.

I am now off for a lie down

[Jon MW]

...

I meant to ask this after Coventry this year. But I couldn"t find anything about them in the rules section.

Mainly:

Who is first to show? Is it last aggressive action in any round or just last agressive action on the river ?

The last person to bet or raise on the river.. If checked around, then the person in earliest position i.e. closest on dealers left.

If a player mucks, rather than showdown can anyone (or just players in hand) ask to see the cards ? Or is this supposed to be only in the event of protecting the integrity of the game ?

Anyone at the table can ask to see any hand that goes to showdown. But yes, the rule is there to protect against collusion, it is not so that you can ask to see someone"s hand to gain oinformation.
...

At Bolton I had to show a hand down when I was last to check because I"d made the last agressive action on the turn, and at one of the World events somebody asked to see my cards when my opponent mucked to my bet even though he wasn"t in the hand - I wasn"t particularly happy about either, but as suggested - it"s not really important enough to get too bothered about, so I just let it slide.

[Paulie_D]

somebody asked to see my cards when my opponent mucked to my bet even though he wasn"t in the hand - I wasn"t particularly happy about either, but as suggested - it"s not really important enough to get too bothered about, so I just let it slide.

He folded..not mucked so it hasn"t gone to showdown.

In this instance, I"m calling the floor....and I"m not showing until I"m given a sensible reason as to why I have to show....and even then he"d better have a good one.

[bigalhx3]

somebody asked to see my cards when my opponent mucked to my bet even though he wasn"t in the hand - I wasn"t particularly happy about either, but as suggested - it"s not really important enough to get too bothered about, so I just let it slide.

He folded..not mucked so it hasn"t gone to showdown.

In this instance, I"m calling the floor....and I"m not showing until I"m given a sensible reason as to why I have to show....and even then he"d better have a good one.

so you would call the floor and not just get on with it and play the game

[daveyb147]

...

I meant to ask this after Coventry this year. But I couldn"t find anything about them in the rules section.

Mainly:

Who is first to show? Is it last aggressive action in any round or just last agressive action on the river ?

The last person to bet or raise on the river.. If checked around, then the person in earliest position i.e. closest on dealers left.

If a player mucks, rather than showdown can anyone (or just players in hand) ask to see the cards ? Or is this supposed to be only in the event of protecting the integrity of the game ?

Anyone at the table can ask to see any hand that goes to showdown. But yes, the rule is there to protect against collusion, it is not so that you can ask to see someone"s hand to gain oinformation.
...

At Bolton I had to show a hand down when I was last to check because I"d made the last agressive action on the turn, and at one of the World events somebody asked to see my cards when my opponent mucked to my bet even though he wasn"t in the hand - I wasn"t particularly happy about either, but as suggested - it"s not really important enough to get too bothered about, so I just let it slide.

you shouldnt have had to show your cards if you bet and your opponent mucked

[AMRN]

you shouldnt have had to show your cards if you bet and your opponent mucked

If you bet and your opponent mucks without calling, then he has folded and surrendered the pot without any need for showdown.

the question of showing hands comes around either when the river goes bet/call, or check/check..... if one player folds, then the other has no need to show to claim the pot.

[Robbiebox]

the question of showing hands comes around either when the river goes bet/call, or check/check..... if one player folds, then the other has no need to show to claim the pot.

I agree and would like to see this Steve, but it seems that many consider it right that you have to show even if you are the only one left with cards.

[RioRodent]

the question of showing hands comes around either when the river goes bet/call, or check/check..... if one player folds, then the other has no need to show to claim the pot.

I agree and would like to see this Steve, but it seems that many consider it right that you have to show even if you are the only one left with cards.

Then those many are just wrong and any dealers that show your cards to them are wrong also.

[AMRN]

the question of showing hands comes around either when the river goes bet/call, or check/check..... if one player folds, then the other has no need to show to claim the pot.

I agree and would like to see this Steve, but it seems that many consider it right that you have to show even if you are the only one left with cards.

if both players check the river, and then the player who is due to showdown first just open mucks, it is correct that the other player must show his hand - when a hand is checked down on the river, you cannot win a pot without showing cards.  When a player folds to a bet, there is never any need for the winning player to show cards.  Huge difference.

[Claw75]

If a player mucks, rather than showdown can anyone (or just players in hand) ask to see the cards ? Or is this supposed to be only in the event of protecting the integrity of the game ?

on this point, the rule is there to protect the integrity of the game, and it"s pretty bad etiquette, imho, for someone to ask just for information.

Happened to me at APAT in Luton last year - I"d lost quite a sizeable amount of chips 3 barrelling from the button when i"d missed, and mucked when the other guy in the hand check/called and turned over the winner.  Third person who had folded on the flop asked to see the cards because he "wanted to know what you were playing so aggressively with".  dealer just flipped them over so I didn"t have time to argue (nor would have), but did mention that i thought it was pretty poor form.

[daveyb147]

you shouldnt have had to show your cards if you bet and your opponent mucked

If you bet and your opponent mucks without calling, then he has folded and surrendered the pot without any need for showdown.

the question of showing hands comes around either when the river goes bet/call, or check/check..... if one player folds, then the other has no need to show to claim the pot.

For sure ,as you said if a player bets and the opponent mucks you do not have to show to anybody,,the comment i was reffering too was that this was not the case at last years worlds.
If check check or bet call and one player mucks i believe the other must show to take the pot

[MintTrav]

I really don"t understand why some people get so hung up on this... if you think ypou"ve got the best hand just turn it over, if no one turns over a better one take the pot and move on.

I agree. I was quite surprised at the WCOAP last year to bet the river, be called, indicate that I had zilch and that the other player must be winning if they had called, and then for the other player to insist for me to show my zilch before they then showed their winning hand. It happened twice, both times against former APAT winners. I indicated my reluctance to show and my displeasure, but they just stuck to their guns in wanting to see my cards, although they knew they had won the hands.