KK - Part III

[Jon MW]

As Kinboshi says, "why re raise?"

...depends on ur reason for being in the tournament, i want to win ...

You don"t win a tournament by getting knocked out early.

[hi_am_chris]

i want to take the flop heads up for a start assuming im ahead with my KK i only want one hand drawing at me on the flop. Theres already money in the pot too and if i only take down a small pot at this stage of the tournament im not too dissapointed. Also by flat calling you have no way of knowing how strong your opponent is. Also what you do i guess depends how youve been playing previous pots, if youve been playing very tight maybe its best to just flat call if you want to trap or decieve your opponent on the flop but if youve been in a lot of pots raising and reraising then i think you have to make that reraise because of the chance of getting action from TT JJ QQ and pos more marginal hands.

[hi_am_chris]

And whilst were on the subject just played this hand:

PokerStars Game #14177792297: Tournament #71192044, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/12/29 - 12:02:21 (ET)
Table "71192044 66" 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: J_Leloup (3090 in chips)
Seat 2: DeNiro10 (2980 in chips)
Seat 3: sebure (3000 in chips)
Seat 4: TESIK (2990 in chips)
Seat 5: salprmi (2960 in chips)
Seat 6: rwing (2960 in chips)
Seat 7: IvyPants (3000 in chips)
Seat 8: soaz1 (3000 in chips)
Seat 9: hi_am_chris (3000 in chips)
rwing: posts small blind 10
IvyPants: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hi_am_chris [ ]
soaz1: folds
hi_am_chris: raises 80 to 100
J_Leloup: raises 200 to 300
DeNiro10: folds
sebure: calls 300
TESIK: folds
salprmi: folds
rwing: folds
IvyPants: folds
hi_am_chris: raises 700 to 1000
J_Leloup: raises 2090 to 3090 and is all-in
sebure: folds
hi_am_chris: calls 2000 and is all-in
sebure said, "hope u r not fishes"
*** FLOP *** [ Ts]
*** TURN *** [ Ts] [Td]
sebure said, "folded QQ"
*** RIVER *** [ Ts Td] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hi_am_chris: shows [ ] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
J_Leloup: shows [ ] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
hi_am_chris collected 6330 from pot

[Jon MW]

Didn"t the player with Kings do what you"d suggest to do?

And get knocked out in the early stages?

How does this win tournaments?

[hi_am_chris]

yep i go back to my other argument, its easier to lay them down live and shut up lol

[hi_am_chris]

Another similar hand, some may have read it in  current issue of a poker magazine...

Event full tilt 1000 dollar super monday event

players 30

Stacks Hero 3000 Villain 2970

blinds 10 and 20 with 10 ante

Villain raises to 60

Hero reraises to 288 holding AA

Villain reraises to 894

Hero reraises to 3k and is all in

Villain folds



Villain had kk is this good play by the villain?

[Jon MW]

My main point would be - rather than all the raising, reraising, rereraising - isn"t it better to have some play post flop.

It takes 5 cards to make a hand - so having all your chips end up in the middle preflop, when you only know 2 of them can"t often be that sensible a move can it?

[kinboshi]

Another similar hand, some may have read it in  current issue of a poker magazine...

Event full tilt 1000 dollar super monday event

players 30

Stacks Hero 3000 Villain 2970

blinds 10 and 20 with 10 ante

Villain raises to 60

Hero reraises to 288 holding AA

Villain reraises to 894

Hero reraises to 3k and is all in

Villain folds

Villain had kk is this good play by the villain?

The villain"s re-raise pre-flop is a mistake.  It doesn"t give him any more information - instead it just provides the hero with more information.

If the villain had called here, he"d then be able to assess the flop - maybe even pushing all-in on the flop and putting the AA to the test (a push on the flop might suggest a flopped set for example).

When you bet you want a hand better than yours to fold, and a worse hand to call.  Help the opponent make a mistake.  Re-raising pre-flop here with KK helps the opponent make the correct decision.  They"d fold a smaller pocket pair, and come over the top with aces.

[hi_am_chris]

And what about the fold? good play or bad play?

[kinboshi]

After the raise, and the opponent"s re-raise, then yes - the fold is correct, as I make my opponent"s range AA.

However, I know many people (if not most), disagree with me here and wouldn"t lay down the KK.  The first KK thread that ThinkerJE started was about calling all-in with KK first hand in a deep-stack event.  Most would call.

[hi_am_chris]

the only reason i ask that was because in the magazine i got it from it said the worst part of the hand was the fold, for the same reason u said about the fourth bet/raise, by reraising to 894 you gained nothing. All you did was find a way to fold kk which it says should never be your goal when you are dealt it. If he calls the flop and it comes three babies and he stacks of his chips it would be better play then making that reraise and folding

[kinboshi]

the only reason i ask that was because in the magazine i got it from it said the worst part of the hand was the fold, for the same reason u said about the fourth bet/raise, by reraising to 894 you gained nothing. All you did was find a way to fold kk which it says should never be your goal when you are dealt it. If he calls the flop and it comes three babies and he stacks of his chips it would be better play then making that reraise and folding

Agree with most of that.  I"m not making the re-raise, so I wouldn"t be stuck with making the fold in the first place.  I can"t see how the fold is the big mistake though, surely the raise that puts the player in that situation is the mistake.  Calling the all-in when you think/know you"re behind to AA is merely compounding the error.

[hi_am_chris]

i still think i prefer the reraise in the original example but as with all things poker it depends on your image, your opponents image and your own  style. I prefer the reraise to 1500 simply because i dont know when he reraises to 500 what his hand is, he could do that with any pair 77 through to AA or depending on the player it could be weaker hands such as rag ace or two pictures or even a squeeze play with any two cards.

[kinboshi]

I hear what you"re saying - but what does the re-raise say to him?  What do you actually get from the raise?

When you bet, you want the other player to make a mistake - i.e. fold when they"re ahead, or call when they"re behind.

If they have TT (for example) and your re-raise gets them to fold, then you"ve helped them to make the right decision.  They"ll fold, and you"ll win a little (not a bad outcome, but not the most you could have made from the hand, probably).

If they have AA, then your re-raise is a mistake in that it either makes you call for your whole stack when you"re a big underdog, or fold with all those extra chips in the pot.

To me, the re-raise doesn"t help you define their hand - but helps them define yours.  That helps them to play "perfect" poker, when you want them to be the one making the mistakes.

Like you said, it definitely helps if you know the other player.  But the situation surrounding this hand is that it"s early doors - so you probably have little or no information on your opponent (unless you have history with them).

[kinboshi]

By the way, love the 288 raise by the fella with AA!  Random bet-amounts rule!