Am I doing an angle shoot, cheating or you learn from your mistakes

[Paulie_D]

Way I see it as soon as the cards touch the muck, even if he is still holding them their dead, you read stories and watched highlights of dealer error of mucking cards and players losing the pot. Remember it happened at WSOP.  once in they cant be retrieved nor should they be.

As always, house dependent but the "accepted" rule is that if they are clearly identifiable (as in this case) then they can be retrieved and are live.

RROP:

Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

...but whatever the argument General Rule 1 applies.

1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.

In this case...it"s an angle and I"ll call it like I see it.

[MintTrav]

not really seeing this is an angle shoot

I agree - it"s more like cheating.

Bit strong that John, it"s not cheating it is within the rules of the game.....However it is an angle shoot.

Yeah, you"re right. I just hate this kind of thing. I saw a player get someone else"s hand killed in an APAT tournament just because their cards were too far forward. There were lots of chips in on the River and he had clearly lost the hand - couldn"t believe I was on my own in saying their hand should be live.

You can"t say the call has to stand as technically speaking the OP is right and only called as the other player had mucked his hand.

IMO the hand was still live - not mucked. The rewind you suggest may be the most sensible thing to do, though I would be reluctant as he did call. How can you claim that you only called to try to get an unfair advantage but, if you"re not getting that, you don"t want the call to stand?

[samuel_9]

TD has not got a clue bad TD imo.His cards where still live. You new what you where doing .You diden.t like the loud vocal you where been OUT PLAYED with 79of j3of this is a very good player imo .BUT if your trying to tell me this was good play on your part to learn the loud vocal player a lesson the player that was OUT PLAYING you .Sorry it dos.ent wash with me .Hes still holding his cards .You no the rules his cards are still live. You no that dont tell me you dont .I have to agree with john and paulie D on this 100 persent.also sack the TD

[Paulie_D]

I saw a player get someone else"s hand killed in an APAT tournament just because their cards were too far forward. There were lots of chips in on the River and he had clearly lost the hand

Say what now?

Floor!

couldn"t believe I was on my own in saying their hand should be live.

Nor should you have been....THIS is why people should know the rules.

"Protect Your Hand" means more than sticking a protector on it...it means knowing the "general" rules, knowing the "house" rules (where different), not acting before it"s your turn BUT making sure you know what"s going on around you and...so much more.

[Jon MW]

not really seeing this is an angle shoot

I agree - it"s more like cheating.

Bit strong that John, it"s not cheating it is within the rules of the game.

...

If the ruling is correct then it"s angle shooting - because it"s within the rules of the game

If the ruling is incorrect then it"s cheating.

Generally I think the ruling was incorrect for the obvious reasons already stated that the hand was identifiable - but I also think that the TD"s word should stand as the final arbiter.

In a "properly" run tournament, therefore, I"d count it as cheating.

[AMRN]

Could it be argued that the Villain was also shooting an angle by half mucking his cards before the OP had completed his action - therefore dictating the OP"s action for him?  

both players at fault here imo.   If the villain makes his shove, then sits with the cards on the table until everyone else has completed their actions before he touches his cards again, there is no issue and no opportunity for an issue.

[Paulie_D]

Could it be argued that the Villain was also shooting an angle by half mucking his cards before the OP had completed his action - therefore dictating the OP"s action for him?

Being a d-bag, yes...bordering on an angle...but HE knew his hand was live since he hadn"t let go.

Bad ruling (from what we know)...and they were both at fault...but the OP moreso.

[deanp27]

You were fine until the point you tried to take advantage by saying don"t do anything I call. Instead of trying to get excited by trying to steal the pot on a technicality a ruling should have been requested at this point. Poor ruling was given though

[Paulie_D]

final table and he"s UTG+1

8 handed 300/600 and wild player open shoves approx 5500 into my BB

Oh...and one more thing...with less than 10BB...I"M shoving ATC into the middle too.

[mal666]

Villain is stupid, ruling is stupid and your actions are questionable.

[Paulie_D]

Villain is stupid, ruling is stupid and your actions are questionable.

This +1

[/end thread]

[I Q8Holds I]

Im pretty sure his hand is dead. But i hate it, it"s an angle shoot that a guy who probably doesn"t play much let alone get to the final table and you"ve made him have a horrible experience. I love "angle shooting to get loose calls and bad folds -"moodying" but not like this... Personal opinion please don"t take any offence

[Foggy]

Villain is stupid, ruling is stupid and your actions are questionable.

+1, you would not be on my Christmas card list after this move. Surely not the spirit of the game from an APAT member

[Zozzy]

This type of angle shooting is bad form and I agree with previous posts, but this rule about cards being easily identifiable after they have touched the muck and deemed still live is not the norm as far as I am aware.
In G or Grosvenor casinos if they touch the muck they are dead. No ambiguity.

Quote
"[1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.]"
This is a great rule in theory. I have never seen this applied.

[Jon MW]

... this rule about cards being easily identifiable after they have touched the muck and deemed still live is not the norm as far as I am aware.
In G or Grosvenor casinos if they touch the muck they are dead. No ambiguity.

Quote
"[1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.]"
This is a great rule in theory. I have never seen this applied.

It is true that neither of these rules are broadly applied - but that"s only because the misaprehension about the magical powers of the muck is very widespread.

The fairness rule doesn"t come up very often, but it is almost universally accepted as correct.