Blind V Blind

[WYoung83]

The high variance game is old school Duke. Get with the new programme please.

[Santino67]

Raise on that flop to around 650 in position, If he"s raised pre with a bigger King pre then you"ll prob find out if you"re behind and save yourself the call call call down the streets and more chips.

Don"t do this.

Like the way you"ve played the hand thus far. Board is pretty dry so it"s a bit of a meh spot. Has he shown any tendencies to barrel off previously?

Why not do this George? Mark has ended up calling off 850 chips by the turn only to fold on the river. Are you just gonna call this guy down every street and hope you"re ahead or would there be a different plan?

I"m not hoping. When I play poker I make decisions based history/reads and game flow. You"re raising the flop not for value but for information which is effectivley allowing your opponent to play his hand perfectly against you ie: fold worse/call or raise with better or even worse getting bluffed off the hand by a capable opponent.

Don"t be afraid to play through the streets. Poker is about making correct decisions and playing a multi street pot and getting put to the test is something I very much enjoy about the game, especially when you make the right one. Granted it"s tough to know whether folding was the right one in this case but imo mporter played the hand well. I think jamming pre id fine but don"t mind a call here pre BoB either

I agree with what you"re saying to a certain extent here George but by calling the raise pre you"re effectively hoping to hit the kind of flop that"s come down in this hand. Based on the info you have on the player, blinds, stack sizes etc we really can"t afford to be calling down unless we"re pretty sure we"re ahead of their range when the flop lands. If Mark believes he"s ahead on that flop and turn then he"s got to call the river.
With the stack sizes as they are this guy has enough chips to be small-ballling his way to hitting any ace, any set etc etc so why not put the question back to him on that flop rather than effectively giving him a free card? If Mark has a stack of around 5k in this spot then playing down the streets in position is fine, but IMO not a good idea with this current situation.

[WYoung83]

 You are in a way ahead/way behind situation with top pair on a dry flop. If you are ahead then your opponent has between 2-3 outs. So rasing on this flop with top pair "for information" is somthing that good players rarely do. ( in fact good tourny players actually hate the phrase "raise for information") If you are going to raise on the flop, then folding top pair if he shoves is really bad and spewy, Let him keep bluffing if he is behind. If he is ahead then so be it, I would just call turn and river.

[Santino67]

You are in a way ahead/way behind situation with top pair on a dry flop. If you are ahead then your opponent has between 2-3 outs. So rasing on this flop with top pair "for information" is somthing that good players rarely do. ( in fact good tourny players actually hate the phrase "raise for information") If you are going to raise on the flop, then folding top pair if he shoves is really bad and spewy, Let him keep bluffing if he is behind. If he is ahead then so be it, I would just call turn and river.

My point above is that by calling the flop turn and river you leave yourself with around 800 chips, is that not worse and more spewy if you"re behind? You"re also not necessarily folding behind a re-raise shove on the flop if you have information suggesting the villain is bullying you with any 2, missed ace, lower pair etc etc. If he has a bigger king, whichever way you play this you"re done for unless you can get the correct information you need before spewing off all your chips. If you allow the villain to dictate and he"s playing 6/6 or 2/2 then you"ve effectively let him hit his boat by just calling the flop and turn. I"d be surprised if anyone on this forum hasn"t felt that pain on more than one occasion.

"Raising for information" may well be a bit old school but can still be used in the right spots IMO, show me a "good player" who"s never done this in their career coz I"ll put money on the fact most of them have.

[deanp27]

Just because it can be ok in certain spots does not mean it is good here. raising for value or raising as a bluff? By raise folding you are effectively bluffing with a huge hand BvB

[George2Loose]

You are in a way ahead/way behind situation with top pair on a dry flop. If you are ahead then your opponent has between 2-3 outs. So rasing on this flop with top pair "for information" is somthing that good players rarely do. ( in fact good tourny players actually hate the phrase "raise for information") If you are going to raise on the flop, then folding top pair if he shoves is really bad and spewy, Let him keep bluffing if he is behind. If he is ahead then so be it, I would just call turn and river.

My point above is that by calling the flop turn and river you leave yourself with around 800 chips, is that not worse and more spewy if you"re behind? You"re also not necessarily folding behind a re-raise shove on the flop if you have information suggesting the villain is bullying you with any 2, missed ace, lower pair etc etc. If he has a bigger king, whichever way you play this you"re done for unless you can get the correct information you need before spewing off all your chips. If you allow the villain to dictate and he"s playing 6/6 or 2/2 then you"ve effectively let him hit his boat by just calling the flop and turn. I"d be surprised if anyone on this forum hasn"t felt that pain on more than one occasion.

"Raising for information" may well be a bit old school but can still be used in the right spots IMO, show me a "good player" who"s never done this in their career coz I"ll put money on the fact most of them have.

I can probably name 100 players who haven"t raised for info but I don"t know how we"re going to prove it either way

[TheSnapper]

Based on the info you have on the player, blinds, stack sizes etc we really can"t afford to be calling down unless we"re pretty sure we"re ahead of their range when the flop lands. If Mark believes he"s ahead on that flop and turn then he"s got to call the river.

This would be true against a maniacal villain we believed capable of firing 3 barrells with air and giving him enough rope would exploit his tendencies.

It would seem OP doesn"t feel that is the case with this villain and that should change how we respond considerably. We flat pre, hit top pair ip on this flop ( K33 ), villain should be cbetting 100% here since there"s only a small probability we have hit. Equally, there"s only a small probability that villain may have hit so we can.........

Raise versus this wide range and take down a small pot when villain correctly folds the large part of his range we beat or calls/reraises with the small dominating part of his range. This is good for villain and bad for us.

With the stack sizes as they are this guy has enough chips to be small-ballling his way to hitting any ace, any set etc etc so why not put the question back to him on that flop rather than effectively giving him a free card?

This is the standard logic used frequently to support the "raise for info" position. Players remember being outdrawn, they don"t like it and take steps so as it does"nt happen again. You"ll hear statements like " I bet big to get him off his draws" etc. etc.

Being outdrawn happens and is a small factor in an overall profitable strategy. If you are not allowing your opponent to put chips in the pot with......

"any ace" 3 outs
"any pocket pair" 2 outs

You are missing shedloads of value.

[bear21]

Based on the info you have on the player, blinds, stack sizes etc we really can"t afford to be calling down unless we"re pretty sure we"re ahead of their range when the flop lands. If Mark believes he"s ahead on that flop and turn then he"s got to call the river.

This would be true against a maniacal villain we believed capable of firing 3 barrells with air and giving him enough rope would exploit his tendencies.

It would seem OP doesn"t feel that is the case with this villain and that should change how we respond considerably. We flat pre, hit top pair ip on this flop ( K33 ), villain should be cbetting 100% here since there"s only a small probability we have hit. Equally, there"s only a small probability that villain may have hit so we can.........

Raise versus this wide range and take down a small pot when villain correctly folds the large part of his range we beat or calls/reraises with the small dominating part of his range. This is good for villain and bad for us.

With the stack sizes as they are this guy has enough chips to be small-ballling his way to hitting any ace, any set etc etc so why not put the question back to him on that flop rather than effectively giving him a free card?

This is the standard logic used frequently to support the "raise for info" position. Players remember being outdrawn, they don"t like it and take steps so as it does"nt happen again. You"ll hear statements like " I bet big to get him off his draws" etc. etc.

Being outdrawn happens and is a small factor in an overall profitable strategy. If you are not allowing your opponent to put chips in the pot with......

"any ace" 3 outs
"any pocket pair" 2 outs

You are missing shedloads of value.

you say this but the player has raised pre-flop and then we have just checked top pair ??/, to me as i said earlier I would want to see where i am by betting ( old school )  
but as to loads of value any k with a bigger kicker also has us beat, to go all the way and then fold was not for me , would have either took it down on the flop or folded this hand

[TheSnapper]

you say this but the player has raised pre-flop and then we have just checked top pair ??/,

We didn"t check top pair, we flat called flop and turn cbets.

to me as i said earlier I would want to see where i am by betting ( old school )  

If when you play poker your motivation is "to see where i am by betting", does "getting value from your hand" ever become an option? This is a basic fundamental and neither old or new school.

but as to loads of value any k with a bigger kicker also has us beat, to go all the way and then fold was not for me , would have either took it down on the flop or folded this hand

The "loads of value" comes from the hands in villains range that can"t stand a raise but will continue to put chips in bad so long as we don"t tell villain he"s behind.

[noble1]

[ronaldo07]

Their range is polarised there IMO as that is effectively an AI. Don"t think I"m ever folding here in a sb v bb battle. Fwiw I 3 bet/fold pre

[JStarkey]

What stats are you running at here Mark? What other history bvb do you have with villian?

[WYoung83]

"Fwiw I 3 bet/fold pre"

So are you semi bluffing preflop? Or are you raising for information?
LoL, sorry just had to say it.

[mporter123]

What stats are you running at here Mark? What other history bvb do you have with villian?

Sigh... please dont make me talk about this hand again

Next to no history with villain or not that I can remember as was prob playing a few tables (bad excuse for not recognising history). I think I was playing around 13/13, something along those lines.

I have now given up on Holdem manager for MTT"s because my free trial expired I was making too many decisions on the numbers and not looking for true reads.

[TheSnapper]

I was making too many decisions on the numbers and not looking for true reads.

The numbers are reads