APAT Season 5: Discussion

[Chipaccrual]

Season 5 Schedule and Details will be announced soon^*

In the meantime, feel free to discuss areas you would like to see improved, changed, or introduced.

There have been a number of other threads in the past few months covering subjects like :-

• Payout Structure


• Added Value


• Overseas Events


• Pro League


• Satellite Structures (Package or Not to Package)

Discuss away................


^* Definition of "soon"

Dictionary - in or within a short time; before long; quickly

Duffynary - Definitely not in or within a short time; before long; quickly

In context of this thread - Sometime after January 2011  

[duke3016]

Season 5 Schedule and Details will be announced soon

I am beginning to get an aversion to the word soon  

[TheSnapper]

Online league

Some observations.....

Under the current format strength in numbers is the key component towards team success. A team of 10 players simply cannot compete over 10 matches with a team of 20 players. Obviously I understand that if the key to success is to go out and get some more players, Betfair would like that.

But if it means the league loses the 10 player team because they cannot compete then the short term gain becomes unsustainable in the long term.

Under the current points structure ( 9 pts for 1st - 1pt for 9th ) if team (A) with 20 players manage to bring 4 players (20%) to the final table, they are guaranteed 10 pts minimum, and thats in the unlikely event they finish in the bottom 4 pts places.

An opposing team (B) with only 10 players bringing 2 players (20%) to the same final table simply cannot compete in this very common scenario and even if they finish 1st and 2nd for a maximum 17 pts which is a +70% ROI on their final table pts equity. A slightly negative pts equity return for team (A) will award 18 pts and victory.

So as to not take away the reward available to larger teams but to still allow smaller teams a chance to compete, I propose a change in the points award system as follows....

1st   30pts
2nd   23pts
3rd    11pts
4th    8 pts
5th    7 pts
6th    5 pts
7th    3 pts
8th    2 pts
9th    1 pt

[AMRN]

Agree with Brendan on the online league format, but not sure how to fix it in reality. I appreciate that only the top 4 scorers can contribute to the team total, so in theory a team of 4 is as strong as a team of 20.... but in practise that just doesn"t stack up over the longer term. The team of 20 will continually win by virtue of having more players - take Walsall, Solent, etc as the obvious examples (it"s not the same players making the finals every week - they have such a deep pool that there players are generally bound to make the final table and points)

Pro League - not well attended and detracts from the very special £75 APAT National event

Live Updates - love the live feed, but it detracts from the Live Updates thread, and that is imo a bad thing.

Live schedule - nicely spread through the year... BUT it seems that the majority of UK based events are coming in a rush from end of summer onward. I may have that wrong and haven"t checked the calendar - but it certainly feels that way.

Betfair - Thank you very much for an awesome value add over the season!!  More of the same next year please...

Payout structure - lets get more conventional... I hate the flat structure as it stands. Would also be useful if we could end day one after the money bubble, so all those coming back on day two are in the money.

[pables]

I was lucky enough to be at Swansea where we were given free beer tokens. It was especially nice to be in the company of John Murray who had an endless supply of these beer tokens and strange bras  

I suggest more John Murrays at live events to spread the beer tokens

apologies to conscientious objectors but without John Murray, how can we have free (stolen) beer tokens

Cheers

Not Ian

[scouse3465]

Only thing i would like to see is staying away from dusk til dawn unless certain people there were more customer friendly !
Believe it or not its the ONLY casino i ever been put on a drinking ban etc etc.

[Marty719]

More traditional payout structure is the main improvent I wud like to see.

[Sunseekers]

hi guys, i agree with many of the points above my main points of contention are

1. pro game should be on the backburner as takes away many of the wanted seats in the main events

2. we should play until the money bubble, casino premitting.

3. the payout structure needs a wee tweak, nothing too drastic.

4. Sunday variants are great games and i would like to see bigger numbers as these are always fun, i appriecate its difficult to get dealers on sundays dealin horse, plo, stud etc

bring on the plo8 in coventry

final note, added value - may we all have the PITCHIE effect lol

[MintTrav]

Online league

1st   30pts
2nd   23pts
3rd    11pts
4th    8 pts
5th    7 pts
6th    5 pts
7th    3 pts
8th    2 pts
9th    1 pt

Far too top-heavy - designed with a view to giving all the points to the individual winner/second rather than it being a team game. In fact, I"m not sure that this is a serious suggestion or if Brendan is putting an OTT proposal in with the hope that a compromise will end up weighted a bit more towards him.

If you make the effort to bring some new players into APAT and Betfair you will be rewarded. You have a whole country you can access.

[WarBwastardo]

Season 5 Schedule and Details will be announced soon.

In the meantime, feel free to discuss areas you would like to see improved, changed, or introduced.

There have been a number of other threads in the past few months covering subjects like :-

• Payout Structure


• Added Value


• Overseas Events


• Pro League


• Satellite Structures (Package or Not to Package)

Discuss away................

Details being announced soon does kind of suggest that things have already been decided on for next season.  Is there still some latitude to change things if this thread shows an obvious demand for it?  

Assuming there is;
-I think the Pro-League needs to be ditched and those seats redistributed to the £75 event. 
-Deals need to be permitted. 
-A more conventional pay-out structure needs to be introduced.
-A wide selection of sandwiches available all day
-"Paper" updates for day 1 - live feed for final table only if possible
-Anyone making day 2 of National events to have cashed (earlier start on day 1 if required?)
-Welsh event absolutely necessary??

[Chipaccrual]

Details being announced soon does kind of suggest that things have already been decided on for next season.  Is there still some latitude to change things if this thread shows an obvious demand for it?  

The reason I"ve posted this now, is because discussions are underway.  As I"m sure you can appreciate, getting it all together takes time, so plenty of latitude for change at the moment.

And if we don"t ask members their views, we go with what we think is best.  We are usually right, but it doesn"t hurt to get a second opinion or two.  

[Paulie_D]

Pro League

I see where APAT want to go with this but the attendance has not been as spectacular as they might have hoped. I"d rather see higher seat numbers at the £75 level.

Live Updates

I love the live feed, but it can take something away from the Live Updates thread but I think that Luton proved that, with willing help, both can co-exist. Perhaps incentivising people to assist in one or the other might be beneficial. Overall, I"d hate to lose either.

Live schedule

Seems fine to me. With 10 live events (UK & European) PLUS the World"s Festival in August, we"re getting roughly one event a month.

Betfair

Easily the greatest added value we"ve had and an exceptional job. Props guys.

Payout structure

I"m not really fussed about the payout schedule but going more conventional seems to be the way forward. This change would, I hope, disincentivise deal making but I would keep the "no deal" clause in place anyway.

Day 2 payout only

I"d like to see this as an aim....I realise that circumstances and time limits may not make it possible but if Tighty/Leigh/Des think that playing another level would get us down to the money then I would hope they would take the right decision.

I fully realise that the APAT team work their collective butts off for the live events and put in hours that would cripple normal individuals but I think that KNOWING you"re coming back for the money (or not) would be beneficial to many.

[TheSnapper]

Online league

1st   30pts
2nd   23pts
3rd    11pts
4th    8 pts
5th    7 pts
6th    5 pts
7th    3 pts
8th    2 pts
9th    1 pt

Far too top-heavy - designed with a view to giving all the points to the individual winner/second rather than it being a team game.

Top heavy? of course, surely 1st should be rewarded. Not Overly top heavy at ~30% to 1st and ~23% to 2nd, hardly amounts to "giving all the points" unless of course you are an accountant and can rationale that 53% is indeed categorically 100%.

How can that then equate to it no longer being a "Team game" tbh John I expect a stronger argument from you and if may summarise your post.........

I don"t like it......
Why not John?.......
Just because!!!!

In fact, I"m not sure that this is a serious suggestion or if Brendan is putting an OTT proposal in with the hope that a compromise will end up weighted a bit more towards him than me.

Firstly FYP

TBH John this is more than a little insulting but I tend to make allowances when people I consider friends succumb to the multitude of human frailties we are are all susceptible to.

I think and hope it is fairly evident that I put some time and thought into my post.

If you make the effort to bring some new players into APAT and Betfair you will be rewarded. You have a whole country you can access.

This is a valid point, teams who recruit well should and will retain their numerical advantage. But the crux of the matter is that my proposal is not to negate that advantage but to offer a sporting chance to the few teams that are currently making up the numbers.


The reality is, you need at least 15 starters to compete within the current format. Yes I am currently a representative player for a numerically weak Dublin team but I could very easily just jump ship and play for Sunderland, Solent or whoever else. While that would be a simple and easy way to solve my own personal current difficulty, it doesn"t address the long term challenge for the league as a whole. Ultimately I would then be able to "compete" but would be doing that in a single division league against the remaining 5 or so teams of 20+ players.

Take a brief step outside of your current numerically healthy position and consider how many Teams and Divisions we will have for the start of seasons 7 & 8.

[Chipaccrual]

Re: Online National League


It"s an interesting discussion.  I like the F1 style points system, that might help the balance.

When I say balance, I see that the league should somehow be able to fall between these two statements.


A team shouldn"t be able to earn points based on one players finishing position

and

A team shouldn"t be guaranteed points based on a significantly larger turnout of players


In the past, both statements have applied at different times, in my opinion.  Limiting the number of points scorers per team helps the balance, but the more players in a team, helps balance that teams variance, which means they will perform more consistently.

And this league will be won by the more consistent teams.  Every dog has it"s day, but over a ten match season, the volume does help.


Don"t think that solves the debate, but I am keen to fine tune the structure for next season, and that may include

Divisional Structure
Disbanding some teams
New Teams
Points Structure

All thoughts welcome.

[Waz1892]

Re: Online National League

Don"t think that solves the debate, but I am keen to fine tune the structure for next season, and that may include

Divisional Structure
Disbanding some teams
New Teams
Points Structure

All thoughts welcome.

Online League  -

I think it would be a shame to restructure the league from the current 3 divisions as we haven"t done a "full cycle" as in 3 league seasons , to allow each team to find their "nature league" if that makes sense?

I understand some teams haven"t had any players, so certainly some kind of merging of certain clubs, or disbanding them altogether, but I think the 3 divisions should remain.

Live tournaments -

Day 2 gets paid.

Less Non UK events - It is expensive enough to attend in the UK, without adding flights, and 3-4 days away, and I think 25% were overseas!

Betfair - Keep, they have been superb.

Other than that, all superb and may it continue to that effect.